So 2,2,2, was failed experiment

[MrNegotiator-2325]

Every game is just insanely boring in 2-2-2

Completely subjective and a claim that I and tons of people disagree with.

and everything lives forever

Balance problem. Not related to 2/2/2 role - lock.

they killed variety completely to the point where we need hero bans to try and change the only viable composition

Yeah, I also really miss the ““variety”” 5/4 DPS comps…

Also, needless to say that Hero Bans have little no do with the lack of that ““diversity”” and especially 2/2/2 role - lock in the first place…

since every FPS player would be miserable playing like this and you “lOvE fPs”.

Please stop bringing up your own, anecdotal and subjective opinions and dressing them as ““facts””.

You sound ridiculous at best.

Like you say, i don’t see any actual evidence they gave up on 1-3-2 or any other kind of composition for good. You’re just assuming.

Nice try, but the developers themselves said that they would not be implementing 3/2/1 into the game because the feedback was “mostly negative”.

so what you said about lack of evidence is just false.

I said that you have a lack of evidence to prove that the majority of DPS players dislike 2/2/2 role - lock, not for the fact that the majority of the player base are DPS players in the first place…

BUT the OBJECTIVELY reason

There’s almost nothing objective about this entire subject. The quicker you understand this, the better

There’s nothing more ridiculous than denying the truth just because you like the most stupid update they ever made, and just killed the Overwatch we bought.

You have provided absolutely zero evidence to prove literally any of your non - existent claims and still, you’re the one who’s blaming me for being in denial??

Please stop with the hypocrisy already. Your troll - like attitude is what’s giving the minority of this player base that dislike 2/2/2 role - lock a terrible name

because Blizzard destroyed the main aspect of their game trying to please garbage players who blamed everyone else for their lack of skill.

If you really think those were the only people who asked for 2/2/2 role - lock, then I’m sorry, but:

then there’s something wrong with you.

that’s why you dislike 1-3-2, the mode where the game actually looks like a FPS and not like a braindead tower defense.

3/2/1 was nothing but a “Glorified Deathmatch”, as someone in these Forums very accurately said before… A cheap attempt from the devs to fix queue times by catering for the 1000th time to DPS players. That’s why it rightfully received “mostly negative” feedback and was thrown down the gutter.

[MrNegotiator-2325]

as of this time, I am aware of many sources of data purporting to support the claim of a majority - including but not limited to multiple polls conducted on reddit and on these forums - and I have yet to view a source that is valid

You mean that you purposefully choose to ignore sources out there that prove the claim of a majority (which don’t include “community - created polls” by the way), AKA literally all of them , just because they don’t fit with your own crafted fantasy of 2/2/2 role - lock’s supposed ““failure””…

We know you Megadodo and are eager for you to finally step out of your little bubble of bias and ignorance

invalid is invalid

… According to you…

whether data supports one’s own stance or not has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it is valid or not

Reaaally funny that you Megadodo say that… Really, really funny…

[MrNegotiator-2325]

No, it can be proven in a statistical way if you look at enough open profiles.

Great. And I expect that you have done all this checking yourself and are able to provide feasible data now.

That they’ve done that, rather than see queues improve , shows that no, DPS aren’t leaving disproportionately.

The queue times did improve, as pre - 2/2/2 role - lock when the changes you’re talking about were actually implemented, queue times used to be just a few seconds for some people…

After that point and the implementation of 2/2/2 role - lock, he queues have remained stable, not less/higher and therefore my above point still stands.

[Megadodo-11847]

The only thing that failed worse was 1-3-2 and open 6-stack… GOATS anyone?

The only place I am aware that GOATS was a problem was in OWL, given that paying customers were tried of seeing the same team compositions every single match generally on both sides . Ticket buying customers who get bored stop buying tickets.

It was never a problem in the game per se

I am not a proponent of any locked role arrangement, so I am not fan of 132 but I’d hardly say a 1 week or less trial run amounts to much of a failure. I could certainly see them run the 132 experiment again with an altered mix of adjusted capabilities to ensure that the tank players enjoy it more

[DrDangerRuss-2439]

I mean, I played Ana exclusively in 1-3-2, I thought it was fine, it’s what I’m used to. I got the impression from a lot of people tanking for me that the massive buffs the tanks got felt amazing and let them feel more impactful than having to rely on an off-tank.

This is the thing about opinions, they’re not the sweeping things you say they are, any more than “all DPS will be nerfed” is a true sweeping statement.

That’s not how i felt it at all. Healing right now isnt too bad. Healing with 3DPS would reduce people’s enjoyment due to healing being less impactful and there being more DPS chasing round the healers. To bring that back to the same level, things would have to be rebalanced not just for tanks, but for healers and DPS.

I’m not saying ALL dps would need to be nerfed. There’s potential to up the potency of all the healers instead, but that leads to things not dieing.

[DrDangerRuss-2439]

132 will lose tank/healers specifically, which goes against the entire point of it existing - reducing queue times for DPS.

In order for the claim that dps queue times wouldnt be reduced by this change to be true, 50% of all tanks would have to no longer play tank following this change.

I dont see that as a reasonable possibility, especially given that tanks would be greatly enhanced in such an arrangement, providing more enjoyment for many tank players

I do see this as a reasonable possibility - removing all synergy between tanks and giving even MORE responsibility would certainly make it a less fun role. I also see there’s a reasonable chance that massive numbers of healers would quit too, due to non-stop DPS harassment every game.

[DrDangerRuss-2439]

snip

• I said harder OR less fun.
• Jeff said the only reason for 132 was to improve queue times.
• As a Doomfist main, you win out on both sides of 132, of course you like it. He’d need some hard nerfs when teamed up with tracer/genji or whatever VS 2 healers. He’d also need some when teamed up with Reaper/Mei VS 1 tank.
• I read “competitive game modes should be challenging for heroes i dont play”

[ƕlĸ-2818]

I said harder OR less fun.

You gave no reasoning as to why it would be less fun other than that it’s harder. You said that they don’t have help from a backup tank which again just makes it harder.

Jeff said the only reason for 132 was to improve queue times.

Another benefit that was mentioned in interviews and on the forum was in regards to how it changes the feel and pace of the game, something that they may consider for the sequel.

As a Doomfist main, you win out on both sides of 132, of course you like it.

I also loved it as a Reinhardt/Wrecking Ball player.

My hammer swings actually felt like I was swinging a giant hammer with the damage buff.

I read “competitive game modes should be challenging for heroes i dont play”

See above.

The game should be equally challenging for all roles.

[KulstorEbrou-1130]

222 was done because DPS literally wasn’t being played, now undoing it is in our favor too? lol?

Pretty confident 2-2-2 was for a couple layers of reasons not just 1.

• GOATs was probably an actively observed contributor
• Competitive complaints was another one (a very ongoing one).
  High rank complaining about poor matchmaking with full DPS mains or full boosted support mains.
  Low ranks complaining about 3+ DPS in teams making a poor experience (solo healing or tanking).
• Roster was expanding and hero synergies like Brig were becoming inevitable with development.

[Decide-11427]

If those consumers were really that frustrated as you 2/2/ role - lock haters are suggested, they would had quit Competitive at least and even the entire game months ago, which would mean a steady decrease of queue times.

But, the fact that according to your personal experience the exact opposite has seemed to happen, then needless to say your claims are conflicting with each other.

You don’t have the total player numbers for tank, DPS, or support so you can’t deduce whether any of those player numbers have increased or decreased.

DPS always reading “10+ mins” confirms exactly one thing: that anyone trying to play DPS has to wait 10+ minutes, and that was not the case pre-2/2/2.

My personal experience is that yes, I have stopped playing comp. Most of my friends have, in fact, stopped playing OW. When we did play together none of us would pick DPS because it would add significant wait time if even one person selected the role. People lose interest when they never get to play 50% of the hero roster. That “who’s going to tank/support” game of chicken everyone hated has simply been moved to the menu screen, and 2/2/2 didn’t fix the fact that no one wants to tank - which is ironic considering that GOATS was one of the big reasons for implementing 2/2/2.

[KulstorEbrou-1130]

That “who’s going to tank/support” game of chicken everyone hated has simply been moved to the menu screen, and 2/2/2 didn’t fix the fact that no one wants to tank - which is ironic considering that GOATS was one of the big reasons for implementing 2/2/2.

Here’s what I always wondered though… With a mindset of a player aiming to try their best to help and win the game… Aiming to play a DPS character, how many games would they honestly get to play that DPS role?

Matches would run what 10-30m? You get back-to-back games losing that game of chicken because you’d rather win games and fill. Wouldn’t that mean you potentially wasted more time?

Unless (of course) you started with the mindset of, “I don’t care if we only have 1 healer, I’m playing (DPS healer). Guess we’ll lose.” Could you say you honestly played the character in a game, or just technically?

Sorry, it just sounded oddly similar to why I slowly stopped playing LoL to almost entirely. When I wanted to play one hero, a huge discouraging point was knowing games were 20-50m long. So with no guarantee I would get time to play the hero I wanted, I just stopped playing.

Sure, I could get stuck with support or jungle and decide, “Nope, I’m still playing Twisted Fate. Guess we’ll lose,” but that didn’t really mean I effectively played the hero, just technically.

[Decide-11427]

Here’s what I always wondered though… With a mindset of a player aiming to try their best to help and win the game… Aiming to play a DPS character, how many games would they honestly get to play that DPS role?

Matches would run what 10-30m? You get back-to-back games losing that game of chicken because you’d rather win games and fill. Wouldn’t that mean you potentially wasted more time?

I don’t dislike tanking or healing and I don’t view either as a “waste of time.” 2/2/2, however, has proven inadequate from a player service perspective - at least in its current form. Why? Because it can’t meet demand.

If they want to stick with 2/2/2 I believe they need to shift some of the DPS heroes into the other roles. In particular, I think the more specialized roles like Sombra, Symmetra, and Torb could be tweaked and shifted into the support role to promote more support variety.

But honestly 1/3/2 was the most fun I’ve had in the past 9 months: I was able to select all 3 roles and get a mix of all 3 roles. Doing so under 2/2/2 will net me exactly zero DPS games. But 1/3/2 also felt much more like classic OW as there was more space, less healing, and fewer shields to deal with - a far more “open” feeling game IMO.

[MrNegotiator-2325]

@ZeroVirus-11837

Tons of people who are not interested in FPS games.

And… Just another baseless generalization which has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever.

Just sad…

@ZeroVirus-11837

Balance problem CAUSED by 2-2-2.

Nope. Very large amounts of overall survivability due to high healing was a “problem” much before 2/2/2 role - lock was even a thing…

@ZeroVirus-11837

With only 2 Dps to destroy shield and kill the enemies through healing we need a lot of nerfs to supports and tanks

That’s literally the first take of this kind I’ve ever seen this far. Everyone else has been saying that Tank/Healer buffs are necessary in order to bring more people to the two roles.

@ZeroVirus-11837

Now that’s just a lie. The same lie they used to claim that RQ was necessary.

It was necessary for obvious reasons, but not just due to 4/5 DPS ““comps””, not even just due to unstable comps in general…

@ZeroVirus-11837

But even Jeff said that the most frequent comp was 2-2-2 anyway

Would love it if I had a link…

@ZeroVirus-11837

The change that made swaping impossible and every game locked in 2-2-2 is not responsible for the death of variety?

Swapping/Flexing within a role is still a very viable and useful tactic. This myth has been dead for months now…

As for the lack of diversity, it certainly did happen, but only as a necessary and natural side - effect of the system…

And to be honest, someone did the math when 2/2/2 role - lock was introduced and said I think that the number of team combinations decreased from a couple hundred of millions to a couple of millions, which doesn’t really seem like a huge problem to me to be honest…

@ZeroVirus-11837

Stop pretending you are a FPS player.

My favorite games are literally Overwatch, Halo and Rainbow Six Siege.

Please don’t tell me what games I’ll like and play.

@ZeroVirus-11837

Current OW is anti Fps players

Why, because of 2/2/2 role - lock?? Lmaoooo!! That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in months!!

@ZeroVirus-11837

Jeff said the CURRENT version of 1-3-2 probably wouldn’t go into the main game.

That’s not what I heard…

@ZeroVirus-11837

Still, seems like the “most negative feedback” was from the forums, and Jeff should have known better than to take this forum seriously.

Just another baseless claim, I’ll move on…

@ZeroVirus-11837

Except that 15+ minutes to play a short game is completely unacceptable.

In your personal, subjective and anecdotal opinion… For the 1000th time.

@ZeroVirus-11837

Accusing me of providing no evidence and still assuming the minority hate RQ.

I’m not assuming absolutely anything… Here is my evidence, as if I haven’t copy - pasted this exact same thing hundreads of times already:

1. In one of the latest Developer Updates Jeff Kaplan himself said that 2/2/2 role - queue was overall a “positive” change.
2. Here are some official developer quotes that were released a couple of months ago:

@ScottMercer

it’s been great to see so much positive feedback about match quality in a role queue world.

And even more importantly, here’s the point where the overall very positive opinion of the majority of the game’s player base is touched upon:

@ScottMercer

With the generally positive feedback we also seen some a few concerns from players.

@ScottMercer

We also believe that games of Overwatch are better when both teams have balanced team compositions. This has been the loudest, most noticeable positive feedback from everyone.

3. I have to admit this isn’t such a trustworthy source, but just the fact that the grand majority of the unofficial polls created in social places as historically negative for some reason as these Forums have surprisingly shown 2/2/2 role - lock to be a clear winner amongst fans, with the different concensus sometimes even touching 3:1 in favor of the system really says a lot …

Now, do you have any actual evidence that even remotely challenges all of the above??

Yeah… I don’t think so…

@ZeroVirus-11837

People like you, who still try to push the “5 dps” agenda, trying to control the game to fit your own meta standards.

Aaaaaand, just another baseless generalization… That’s probably the most I’ve seen in a single post before

@ZeroVirus-11837

Using the same dumb comparisons that most support players do.

Insults now I see?? How much more sad can your situation get already??

@ZeroVirus-11837

Brig, Mercy 2.0

Rightfully have been nerfed to the ground since their release, next…

@ZeroVirus-11837

nerfing DPS since the game launched

Pure lies, nothing new… Next…

@ZeroVirus-11837

changing every match to a stalemate where every DPS is just miserable to play.

The ““unacceptable”” 15 minute queue times that you yourself have been quoting for your past 4 posts disagree with you…

@ZeroVirus-11837

But if they suddenly piss off the entitled snowflakes it means they hate supports and tanks right?

10th baseless generalization so far, mixed with a couple of insults… Once again, nothing new…

@ZeroVirus-11837

You’re pathetic.

Judging from what I’ve just read… The irony in this statement is just beautiful…

[MrNegotiator-2325]

You don’t have the total player numbers for tank, DPS, or support so you can’t deduce whether any of those player numbers have increased or decreased.

Totally agreed… We can just make anecdotal conclusions based on how stable, or not queue times have been throughout these months.

DPS always reading “10+ mins” confirms exactly one thing: that anyone trying to play DPS has to wait 10+ minutes, and that was not the case pre-2/2/2.

I truly, truly hope you’re not trying to say that the queue times are a product of the lower population and not an inherent and natural side - effect of the fundamental design of 2/2/2 role - lock, because really if you really do believe this then I don’t really have anything else to say here…

My personal experience is that yes, I have stopped playing comp. Most of my friends have, in fact, stopped playing OW. When we did play together none of us would pick DPS because it would add significant wait time if even one person selected the role. People lose interest when they never get to play 50% of the hero roster. That “who’s going to tank/support” game of chicken everyone hated has simply been moved to the menu screen, and 2/2/2 didn’t fix the fact that no one wants to tank - which is ironic considering that GOATS was one of the big reasons for implementing 2/2/2.

I respect this opinion of yours, how respectfully you’ve presented it and I’m really sorry this has been your experience, even if it doesn’t align with mine nor any of my friends’ experiences with the game since 2/2/2 role - lock was released…

[Decide-11427]

I truly, truly hope you’re not trying to say that the queue times are a product of the lower population and not an inherent and natural side - effect of the fundamental design of 2/2/2 role - lock, because really if you really do believe this then I don’t really have anything else to say here…

I believe the queue times are the product of a solution that did not account for who the game’s customers actually are - whether it was willful or not, only the devs can know.

But they must have known that there were far more DPS players than tank and support - even just looking at the breakdown of the hero roster would have suggested that:

• DPS heroes: 51.5%
• Tank heroes: 22.5%
• Support heroes: 26%

The DPS role will naturally attract far more players for the simple reason that there is hugely more variety in the DPS role; people definitely have most-preferred heroes even if they’re willing to play others. This is primarily why I feel 2/2/2 was a failure, because Blizzard fundamentally changed the game by enforcing 2/2/2 but did next to nothing to facilitate changes in player behavior regarding hero picks. If the game quality was poor due to too many people playing DPS, restricting DPS to 2 and doing nothing else to attract those players to tank/support was basically a giant middle finger to a big part of their customer base.

[MrNegotiator-2325]

I believe the queue times are the product of a solution that did not account for who the game’s customers actually are - whether it was willful or not, only the devs can know.

Your reply overall along with this paragraph especially form a take/viewpoint that I can certainly understand and respect as a personal opinion…

But, since the only other option would have been for the devs to once again undermine everyone else’s experience in order to cater to DPS players (as it was seen with the failed 3/2/1 experiment) that happen to represent the majority of the player base, so therefore I can only admire personally this decision from the devs…

[RUMĦAMǃ-1396]

While they didn’t “fix” those problems, it’s still better than the alternative, imo. I’d much rather pick up the healing slack on a DPS-heavy Moira and have 2 beanbags walking around (one that can heal himself and the other bubble a couple seconds of damage) than try to heal up a team of 5 squishy DPS.

[Megadodo-11847]

the addition of roleless competitive to the game today is another step (like the 132 experiment) of the developers admitting 222 didnt quite work as they’d hoped, without explicitly admitting it

[DrDangerRuss-2439]

The game should be equally challenging for all roles.

Exactly, being chased round by 3 DPS and being repeatedly killed can be challenging to the point of frustration, oppressive and not fun for the person being chased, especially if you have less tanks to protect you.

[Decide-11427]

The 1/3/2 experimental card wasn’t even much of a gameplay experiment considering that they made big changes to D.Va, Roadhog, and Zarya, tweaked the shields on the other tanks, and left the balance of the other 23 heroes untouched. Just like when they released 2/2/2 and didn’t walk back the anti-GOATS buffs they’d given to heroes over the previous year, the test of 1/3/2 was half-baked at best.

It was, however, a success with regard to queue times. I queued for all 3 roles and got a mix of all 3 roles. Played nothing but that mode for the entire week it was up.

I understand the whole “we have to make the tough decision because our customers are playing our game wrong” mentality, but like I said before, they didn’t give any of those DPS players any reason to change other than to avoid a negative consequence (long queue times). It’s the customer service equivalent of “some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.”