I didn’t say other heroes don’t matter?
There are dozens of thread about x heroe needing a buff. I never go in and say “hey what about Genji?”
You on the other hand tried to make this thread about Bastion.
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Yeah I’m gonna dismiss the entire pro community based on a few bad suggestions and then claim the bronze community understand the game better, even though the latter have dozens of far more horrible ideas.
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Yes.
Don’t play the implication game with me, you made your implications I made my implications.
Well SOMEONE does.
I talk about the Genji-Bastion interaction. That’s on topic.
I talk about other heroes who are being affected in the same way as Genji is being talked about in the original post. That’s on topic.
it is definitely on-topic to dispute Genji be given buffs that don’t help him fight to the most dominant heroes on OWL but would only help him fight heroes who are as picked as little as Genji is in OWL.
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I mean OWL can make Dva work but we all know how she is on ladder. Just don’t judge too quickly.
She does pretty well, not as good as Rein + Zarya but still above average.
With the recent change lemme just say my experiences have been nothing short of fun. 
But I’m referring to a little while back when dva was awful.
Yes…what? That comment wasn’t even directed at you just like this thread is not about your bastion. You are not the center here.
Ok? Not me.
You made it about your bastion, so no, it isn’t on topic.
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Those aren’t the issue. Tanks are.
This is false. Mitigation hasn’t changed, and in some cases (Orisa, Roadhog, Winston), has greatly improved.
This is also false. Moira and Brigitte still put out the same damage they’ve always have. Additionally, Brigitte paired well with Tracer when she provided armor to her repairpacks and that’s gone.
Partially true.
Didn’t happen in GOATS.
It is reliable; however, the difference between 84 damage and 69 damage is pretty large. Not many heroes suffer that much of a penalty when faced armor. Or if they do, their firing speed more than makes up for it. This is also why Hanzo is more preferred over Widowmaker.
Pick rates don’t have anything to do with overall balance in the game.
Regardless of what’s done, any changes to the metagame will impact the pick rates of perfectly servicable characters. Ignoring everything else, the popularity of the characters will be impacted based on what works best for the current metagame, so even unpopular heroes will still see unpopularity. This has nothing to do with overall balance, however.
This will have an impact, but not in the way you’d expect to happen.
This is a very reductionist view of how balancing works. You need to understand that balancing heroes doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
Not necessarily true.
As a game designer for the game, I’m pretty sure they would have a better grasp and understanding of how the game works, but I don’t think that said game designer will be able to compete with top-level pros. It takes more than just understanding the game (and even then, you may not even have to understand it to do really well).
This is false. Genji’s irrelevancy was discovered early fairly early in Overwatch’s lifespan (see; GOATS). Genji’s popularity has been in decline since then and gotten worse with the introduction of 2/2/2.
Reverting changes won’t make another character more popular, or rather a specific character more popular. Reversions will usually change up the metagame, and that may have an impact on who becomes popular enough for the metagame, but not necessarily going to be who you want it to be.
Correct.
Nail on the head.
Quoted for emphasis.
Mostly false. Genji has great damage and dragonblade does not take forever to charge. What Genji has to deal with, is substantial mitigation, healing and negation. He’s particularly weak against Tanks and that’s intentional. When two tanks on every team, his capabilities are severely restrained. Healing only makes this worse.
Genji is not the only one facing these issues, changing his numbers isn’t going to solve the problems endemic to his kit.
Why try, when you’ve got better choices with easier execution requirements?
Part of Roadhog’s strengths is that he capitalizes on poor positioning and is rewarded for it. Much like any grappler in a 2D fighting game, he thrives on those making casual mistakes that players aren’t aware of and struggles against “perfect play”.
He’s not nearly as mobile as Tracer, or many dive/mobile Tanks. Lucio can run circles around him, as can any mobile Support.
Deflect is useful, but it only lasts 2 seconds with an 8 second cooldown. Reinhardt’s, Winston’s, Orisa’s, and Sigma’s last longer and don’t have holes (can’t be pierced by beams). Additionally, Zarya’s barrier gains power the more players shoot into it, over Genji’s, despite similar cooldowns.
Soldier is still faster; and while Echo and Doomfist are slower, they’re more reliable. Additionally, it’s much easier to land an Helix Rocket than it is a shuriken.
Not how it works. There’s still an aiming component here you’re missing.
No he wouldn’t, and no it would not be wise.
Correct.
A couple of these are likely to break him. He has mobility independent of securing kills; wall climb and double-jump. By themselves they aren’t anything to write home about, but are sufficient for what he does.
Swiftstrike is an area effect ability, not a single-target ability. The only reason it why it has such a long cooldown and why it gets a reset on kill, is because it’s an area effect, with the potential do a tremendous amount of damage.
Partially true. McCree isn’t really focused on sustain as he is burst, but the added health does allow McCree to survive a lot better against Genji (not that this was in Genji’s favor, either way).
Many burst-damage heroes are built this way, Echo, Doomfist, Soldier, etc. There difference here is to the degree at which Genji plays at that’s different from others. If you’ve noticed, Genji’s basic fire tends to hit harder than all of the above, and is adjusted or balanced for that reason on his primary. In short, while other heroes have more slightly more sustain, Genji does not have that kind of sustain. He works through Deflect and RMB as his way of sustaining himself and allowing safer approaches.
He does. This is false.
Correct.
Correct.
McCree is not someone Genji needs to counter. It’s typically in McCree’s favor, either way.
Irrelevant and not a problem.
If Swiftstrike was reduced to this level, it would be the weakest performing 9-second cooldown damage ability in the game.
They wouldn’t be able to buff anything in Genji’s kit that would be comparable. At best, they could add a poison effect to Swiftstrike, but it need to be fairly potent.
Re-positioning is always good.
Not necessarily true.
Nanoblade is two ultimates. The ultimate power is 1/3rd of your team’s total ultimate power and only one of two sources of ultimate damage. Barrage+Gravity Surge has similar returns and fewer counters.
Nope this is not good. Because now you’ve reduced Genji’s primary to worthlessness and made it even worse on Tanks - the primary reason that Genji struggling with in the current composition.
Moreover, you’re greatly increased the amount of “skill” necessary to complete the kill by making it less forgiving and more prone to errors, lag, etc. There’s no leg room to work with here.
Irrelevant.
Then change his projectile size and increase the projectile speed. Larger projectiles means that they’re easier to hit and thus more reliable. Projectile speed would also allow Genji to attack from safer distances and work with less foresight needed to guess positioning or movement of the target.
See? I made Genji more reliable without touching damage.
This also makes it the only way to reliably damage/kill someone while posing incredible risk to Genji and making it incredibly unforgiving.
Whataboutism.
Oh so when you said this:
Who was it directed at?
I have explained why it is on topic.
You have NOT explained why it isn’t on topic, you’ve just given a baseless denial.
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No I meant when I said this:
it wasn’t directed at you.
And then you went on about playing implications. II don’t know what you’re problem is. Seems like you are just looking for something to be offended or feel victimized.
Your explanation makes no sense.
The topic is about Genji’s viability and you made it about Bastion’s.
You know something is wrong with society when asking a simple straightforward question is considered cringe today.
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Tanks have ALWAYS been in the game. Why are they suddenly a problem now?
What has changed recently is McCree’s health buff and Tracer’s range buff.
This is all semantics.
The metagame here IS what heroes are popular.
That’s incredibly vague and cryptic.
How would it be different? Why would it be different?
No GOATS was where EVERY damage hero was found to be irrelevant, not only Genji.
No, Genji had a great pickrate before McCree’s health buff.
Why?
So what if it’s not guaranteed to go a certain way?
We don’t need a guarantee, this is just quibbling. If it doesn’t quite work out you can keep making changes.
Nobody else is as mobile as Tracer.
Genji doesn’t need to have EVERYTHING!
They’re tanks.
The fact that you have to go to tanks to contrast the ability of a damage hero speaks volumes.
Did you forget that Deflect will reflect damage?
No he isn’t.
Only if you cheat like ignoring the ~0.5 sec recovery after shooting helix rocket and have soldier land 100% headshots.
[zero explanation given]
Why not? He’s a very popualr hero in all ranks that means Genji is extremely likely to face him.
It’s not a 9 second cooldown and Blinks do zero damage and go half the distance and only horizontal directions.
[no explanation why it’s worthless]
I have explained its worth.
There are LESS tanks in the game after role queue got rid of goats.
No I haven’t.
You not longer have to so precisely aim centre mass when going for bodyshots as when the spread is barely as wide as their torso just a fraction of a degree left or right and one shuriken would miss. With a narrower spread then you can have a margin of error left or right and 3/3 shurikens still hit.
When going for headshots you don’t have to be so excessively close for the spread to still land 3/3 shuriken. When you are so close then an opponent moving at the same speed has far higher angular velocity so harder to hit.
That will disproportionately reward spam, especially from range.
All the other combos are terrible.
They have nonsense like refusing to try to use damage of dash or try to end with a quickmelee finisher.
That’s not what whataboutism means.
What is the accusation I am supposedly making a counter-accusation to deflect from?
I didn’t think it was.
I can still disagree with it.
Are you claiming to be offended?
I’m not.
There is no way you can make it out as only I am offended and you aren’t as well by the same standard.
I obviously think it makes sense otherwise I wouldn’t have given the explanation.
You have to say why it doesn’t make sense not just say it is and expect me to just give up.
They are related as they are both in the same video game and are both afflicted by the same circumstance that the original post highlighted: poor performance in OWL.
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It isn’t cringe, it’s a smear.
They’re not cringing at all, but they know cringing is bad so they smear with the lie “oh this is cringe, everyone look how much I’m cringing”.
The euphemism treadmill steadily erodes language so people can get in their cheap shots.
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Yes you can, just like you can make a Genji thread to be about Bastion. And that’s my point.
No, I’m not claiming to be offended. Try reading it again.
And sure, I can make the claim that you want to be offended and victomized because you go into a Genji thread crying about how Bastion is more useless and could be even more so with a Genji buff.
If I were you I would go to a buff Moira/Brigitte thread, of which there’s plenty, and cry how buffing them might make Genji even worse.
But I don’t.
This thread is talking about Genji, not “heroes that are in a particular circumestance” or “heroes that are bad in OWL.”
You are also not interested in talking about “heroes that are in a particular circumestance” or “heroes that are bad in OWL” which is why you only brought up Bastion.
So yeah, you tried to make this Genji thread about Bastion.
I still think he should fire both types of Shurikens all at once.
Right click the same — --- —
But left click stacked vertically:
.—
.—
.—
Close enough to reward accuracy, but far enough not to one-shot people from miles away.
The game is too fast for projectile heroes. Speeding Genji’s primary fire up to make it feel more like Echo’s might be a way to increase his output.
I think the problem is: if he’s close enough, he just spams right click. But if he’s not, he has to left click, which feels kinda slow, imo.
Maybe a better LMB is the answer to buffing his midgame (slightly) and increasing his damage/10
If I tried to make this about Bastion then why did I make a separate thread to discuss Bastion changes?
Because your accusation is a complete fabrication against me, it’s not true. You’re making things up about me.
I even said this:
You’re just lying about me with false accusations. I didn’t try to derail this, I did everything you’re supposed to do to keep it on topic.
Well I also didn’t claim to be offended either yet you’re happy to accuse me.
Try reading it again.
Oh you’d be SO OFFENDED if I had said you’re “crying about Genji being useless” you’d be triggered.
But I’m not as easily offended as you are, you really wish people were as thin skinned as you. Boy are you trying your best.
So what if you don’t?
That doesn’t prove a thing, the fact is that does happen even if you don’t do it.
How can you talk about a hero in total isolation?
Genji’s interaction to other heroes matter and I talked far more about Genji’s interaction with McCree.
And you can’t say “It doesn’t matter how Genji interacts with Bastion because Bastion has a low pickrate in OWL” well Genji has a low pickrate in OWL! That means Genji matters just as little.
No I made myself perfectly clear:
And I specifically ended discussion of Bastion changes and directed discussion to another thread as I did in post number 46 of this thread.
You’re TERRIBLE at making false accusations.
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I don’t know why. Maybe because you think everything has to be about Bastion.
That means nothing. First sentence of your first reply in this thread: Do you have sympathy for Bastion?
The attempt to hijack and derail is obvious.
I know you didn’t claim it, so I didn’t ask “are you claiming to be offended?” like you asked me, even though I also didn’t claim it.
So, try reading it again.
No I wouldn’t. You are annoying but not to the level of ignorant trolls like NerfMercy or Egryn and they hardly offend me. As far as I’m concerned they are just trolls or bad players whose opinion on Genji is worthless. You at best would just be in that camp instead of offending me.
So go respond to those Genji mains, not me. I don’t do it.
Nope, because Bastion himself needs changes anyway. He’s gonna be bad whether Genji is bad or not and he should not be holding Genji down.
Besides, Bastion being at the bottom means any hero above him getting buff can technically mean “making things worse for him” but that is no reason to not buff any underperforming hero.
Not maybe, impossibly.
You know it’s impossible as I have made it impossible for you to overlook how I moved discussion of Bastion changes to another thread and kept talking in this thread not about Bastion.
[no explanation given]
So I asked, you accused.
You love to accuse people.
You like to dish it out but can’t take it in.
“A rule for thee but not for me”
You responded to me.
Now YOU are bringing up Bastion changes in a Genji thread!
Even after you KNOW I said I would be responding to Bastion changes in another thread.
You want it both ways. I haven’t spoken about Bastion for ages but YOU keep pushing it in this thread and falsely accusing me.
Every accusation a confession.
You want it both ways, you want to trash talk Bastion knowing you can nail me if I disagree with you as “oh making this all about Bastion again”.
The only reason we’re talking about Bastion is because of YOU, you saw me mention Bastion and you were so outraged you couldn’t keep reading the thread and had to reply to me complaining about my replies to you.
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Clearly not impossible since you did make the other thread and still tried to hijack this one.
I did. Quote the whole thing, not just “that means nothing.”
The point is. I was not claiming to be offended so go read what I wrote again.
Can’t take what? If you were trying to offend me you failed.
Yeah because you responded to my post which wasn’t directed at you. Since you don’t want to be left out, I cut you in.
I didn’t bring it up. It’s still a response to you in regards to Genji’s interaction with Bastion.
I didn’t read all your posts in this thread. You making another post later in the thread does not change the fact that your very first post was meant to hijack.
I don’t know what you meant you haven’t spoken about Bastion for ages. I read your first post and ignored much of the rest of the thread but you had to respond to me and whine about my “implication game.”
There’s no useful input from you in regards to Genji. The only reason you are still in this thread is to derail it and be annoying, which you showed in your first reply to me.
Moira’s right click is less reliable for damage, you can argue it’s more of a skill check but against a tracer it’s definitely a very big change. Brig used to be able to able to oneshot combo a tracer, and now is barely a threat beyond getting a shield bash and having a teammate follow up on it? Moira’s self heal is less, brig is a piece of paper compared to her brick wall status near release with how big her shield HP was.
Shields HP has been gutted, cooldowns on some defensive tank abilities has increased or the ability has been changed itself (like all the awful halt changes), DVA’s dm range & resource has been dramatically reduced. Yes some have had their armour values etc changed, but ability wise a lot of them had considerable nerfs, especially orisa and sigma. In what universe has orisas significantly improved? She no longer receives headshots during fortify, which is a relatively new change, and yet she’s still by far one of the worst tanks in the game because she’s an anchor tank without a freaking anchor.
Stop pretending like we’re still running around with almost infinite defense matrix and 2000hp shield rein’s. Tanks have changed a LOT. It’s very obvious that they’re moving more towards brawl-offense tanks than defensive ranks.
I’ve heard a million and 1 reasons for why tracer should LOSE the fall off range. I’ve yet to hear a single reasonable argument for why she should realistically keep it. She was S tier before it, nothing will change anyway. It’s just powercreep that should have gone in its entirety ages ago.
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