people say hes a pubstomper but hes very mechanically demanding and needs to play in risky positions for optimal damage. i often times see people feed their brains out unless they specialize in him. i think its more so the inability of people to kill him easily. its why genji doesnt scale as well in rank. as soon as people know how to deal with double jump his value is cut dramatically, even more so when people ult track.
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That’s not what noob stomper means. It means that he is only good if the enemies are bad and can’t deal with him. On ladder atleast.
At least don’t be hypocritical, something can’t just become fine because you do it, if you have a stance against something don’t do the same thing that you oppose.
If you are willing to not come from the position of “I know everything” then sure, It is impossible to convince someone that doesn’t understand something if they think that they do, that’s why in extreme conditions you have people who are flat earthers for example, answering with “No” without any explanation or explanation that makes sense doesn’t prove anything…
Also let’s not get into stuff that doesn’t matter in this argument so much, like cool we got it, let’s move forward and have a discussion about the subject at hand.
Again, you used ONE combo to prove that, that might be acceptable if he had one combo, but he clearly doesn’t, and you can ask any Genji player and he will tell you that 3HS+Dash is not his only combo nor it is used much more than others combos.
You need to understand that you can’t give one example that doesn’t work when we only need one that works to prove that it does, I can’t just go into a store look at one guy with black shoes, see that he wears a green shirt and say that everyone that has black shoes wears a green shirt, but I can find someone that has black shoes and wears a blue shirt and say that conception is incorrect, that’s just how it works.
I said that it could even help with 225hp targets to an extent, I know that this is not a combo but this just comes to show that it can still help in general against Mccree.
Of course it is, 3S+Melee is probably more used than 3S+Dash usually, it does require a use of a cooldown and you will 90% of the time want to finish with melee as it is “free” extra 30dmg to the target.
You can ask most Genji mains and they will tell you that this combo is very reasonable and is something that they do all the time.
You don’t want to waste a cooldown to a combo that can fail, because if you do you have no way out, also you can have dash on cooldown while in a fight with a person, it is super reasonable to use melee instead of dash if you can, as you don’t fully commit to a fight that can go the wrong way for you.
Again, it is super reasonable that someone will miss dash on a target, if he engages with it, as it is not the only option to use dash, dash can also be a general movement ability, so if you want to quickly get to cover you will not have dash to perform a combo, anyways, the Genji can be around 17m away from the target and it will not deal damage with dash, yet you will still be in the effective range of the 3HS+Melee combo, you could also dash the ground in front of the target and it will not deal damage to them, which happens in-game quite a bit, and you will still be in the range to do the 3HS+Melee combo, so yeah, it’s pretty reasonable that someone may miss dash and will still be in the range to do the combo.
Why would that be? you just dashed a Lucio that quickly ran away, now you don’t have now dash but you are near the enemy Ashe, or you just used dash to get to the high ground quickly but it didn’t reach far enough to hit the Hanzo, but you are still close enough to hit the 3HS+Melee combo, it’s very probably that you will be in a situation that you could hit a person with Melee while not having dash, even if you have dash it’s not always the smartest move to waste it on a combo that can fail.
What? It’s very rare that you will actually die for using melee at the end of a combo, the 30 extra damage is much much better than you being able to dash faster back, and again, what if you don’t have dash off cooldown? what are you just meant to spam even if you are in range to do the combo? you realize that it is much faster to use melee in that instance, I have never seen someone actually advocating to not use quick melee at the end of a Genji combo, the fact that it can not be interrupter is the main reason why it comes at the end, but by no means does it not being able to be interrupted makes a big difference while getting away, you are just thinking on a 2D scale when the situations you get to in this game have much more depth to them.
If you understand the importance of dash you should understand that you can’t just throw it out in an attempt at a combo that may not work, and you should understand that it is so important because you have no other good options at the moment, also the whole quick melee thing is so made up, please show me one high tier Genji player that actually thinks that you shouldn’t use quick melee as a finisher to a combo in most cases, because I can show you countless Genji’s who are considered the BEST at the game who do use it, and for a reason, the upside of a more consistent burst damage out weights the very small delay it has when trying to get back.
This shows very much that you don’t play the hero, at least on a high enough of a level, and not even enough to understand him to a reasonable degree, you are talking about something that is super theoretical while I am talking about how it works in-game.
Nerfing a bad hero for the sake of another bad hero doesn’t make sense, if a hero is bad and barely picked, by no means he is the reason the other hero is bad at the moment, and my guess is that you are talking about Bastion, in which case, the 29 damage buff has no effect on him, it will still require 11 shots to kill, so unless the bastion has 290 health he will still live 10 shots in, which will still be 4 bursts, so no, this will not make bastion worst, and no one is opposing a change to bastion as well.
Also, nerfing a hero who is bad which buffs other heroes who are bad is hypocritical reasoning, and that is exactly what you are suggesting here.
Yeah, no one wants 6 spread, it will do nothing, and will solve absolutely nothing, especially if you are going to decrease his damage to 25 like you are suggesting, people could already hit combos when he had 12 spread, now we have the consistency of 9 which is great, but no one wants 6 spread, it will get to the point where the hero is so simple that he requires average aim to hit the one combo that works (since you made all the other ones bad) but can’t do anything else and lacks depth, yeah no thank you, perhaps you should leave the balance to people who understand the issue with Genji and understand his kit much more…
No, it doesn’t, Genji is consistent enough with 9 spread to reliably hit reasonable combos at the hands of a good enough player, and they could get it even at 12 spread (but not as consistently) as I said before, you are just suggestions making him easier at this point, and that is not the issue with him…
Ever heard of high-risk high-reward, that’s the premise of Genji, the issue is that the reward is not good enough for the risk taken, as Genji you should be close to the enemy, that’s the idea, but you should have a good option to kill them, which at the moment is not good enough.
Yeah, of course I would oppose it, the downsides are much bigger than the upsides, it’s not worth it, this is a nerf, not a buff, and Genji by no means needs a nerf at the moment, and if you think that he does you are objectively biased.
I’ll say it again, the deal to make the damage 25 and the spread 6 is so bad and will be a nerf, you can ask any Genji player, this is a straight nerf to him, it’s so bad that most Genji players would rather have 30 damage and 12 spread over what we have now, spread doesn’t actually do a lot and can mostly be dealt with, the damage is not something you can deal with, you can’t deal damage better when it is capped, unlike aim which can always be improved, your damage is just capped and your combos being bad will not make it any better.
Right, combos require skill, as they should, I don’t want to make it easier to do, I want to make it stronger when done correctly, I think it is very obvious that I want Genji to be better for the top and not so much better for lower levels of play.
They are not bad, literally look at any good Genji player and see that they are constantly doing it, the damage increase from melee is super worth it, and the fact that you don’t always have dash and that you don’t want to waste it means that they are much more worth it in a lot of situations, also you are somehow ignoring that Genji has a combo which uses dash and melee, which is by far one of the favorites of good players, that combo being Dash+3HS+Melee, it doesn’t neglect dash and requires the damage increase from 28 to 29 to reach the 250hp breakpoint.
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I still don’t understand your obsession with quick-melee being so bad for combos when everywhere you would look you would see top players using it, is that really because of the super small downside of you waiting a couple more milliseconds to dash? you realize that in-game you don’t really instantly dash away when you get the kill unless you are 100% sure the target will die, which is most of the time not guaranteed, by the time that you reacted to the final blow you will already be done with 80% of the melee delay.
Yeah, that’s the point… you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t get rewarded at the slightest for making a dumb play like deflecting a beam, it would be like if bastion could shoot partially through deflect, you shooting deflect shouldn’t give you some sort of reward…
Like it should be.
it is a skill check, if you are bad enough to try and deflect a Zarya beam and not do anything else you should die, it’s pretty simple to be fair…
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That doesn’t make sense, the last half of the sentence is a complete non-sequitur.
The rest wasn’t an explanation either, it was a reiteration of the denial.
Now you’re gaslighting me.
You know that’s bad, right?
I do not demand that no one should care about Genji.
So there is no hypocrisy.
I’m more than willing, that’s ALWAYS been my stance.
I’ve addressed all the other combos.
it still works for all the other viable combos.
Name a VIABLE combo it doesn’t work with.
You need to actually give that example.
Not just presume that it exists.
And quickmelee finisher isn’t appropriate for reasons I’ve already given.
And I have said that extent is insignificant.
Reasons you’ve ignored.
Adding “probably” doesn’t make a baseless claim any more plausible.
Dash damage is EXTREMELY unlikely to fail due to the vast hitbox.
Why would you use quickmelee as a finisher rather than dash?
If they somehow survive the dash damage you still used dash to escape as it simultaneously deals killing blow damage to them AND displaces you 15m away from the fight and instantly resets dash for you to then move another 15m if you really have to.
So contrived.
All your examples are contrived.
You’re bluffing and condescending.
I do understand, you’re bluffing because you’ve made up your mind and are dead set of 29 shuriken damage.
No it isn’t, that’s another lie, another false accusation against me.
6 degrees spread is a massive buff and 25 damage shuriken isn’t a nerf for all relevant interactions with 200HP heroes.
A blatant fabrication.
Genji’s time to kill has already massively gone down due to Genji’s attack rate buff.
29 damage shuriken means any buffs that Bastion may or may not get won’t actually change the number of bursts needed to eliminate Bastion.
So “buffs” to Bastion aren’t really buffs, they don’t actually help.
But it’s NOT a nerf overall just because ANY numbers go down.
You REFUSE to make that distinction.
Prove it.
You can’t because it’s not true.
Not one has even considered it as a possibility.
What a disrespectful denial.
I give reasons and you reject them without reasons.
People can win the lottery.
I don’t care about reasoning that ignores probability or practicality it is PURPOSEFULLY misleading.
Name one specific thing?
You can’t because it doesn’t exist, you’re using purposefully vague language to hide that there is no “depth” in 29 damage shuriken.
There is obviously far more depth in narrower spread as you can effectively fight from far greater ranges.
No he isn’t you later immediately contradict this obviously insincere claim the risk doesn’t match the reward.
No I am NOT!
I suggested the risk be lowered.
You can only make a bad faith argument that less risk is simply “easier”.
The reward CANNOT BE INCREASED!
An opponent cannot be “double-dead” when you got for an elimination on them! The squishy is either eliminated or they aren’t.
Only the risk can be reduced.
29 damage shuriken cannot reduce that risk as the basic arithmetic you deny:
Dash damage + 5 hits of 29 damage shuriken = 195 damage = NO KILL
Dash damage + 5 hits of 28 damage shuriken = 190 damage = NO KILL
Dash damage + 5 hits of 25 damage shuriken = 175 damage = NO KILL
But if you land ONE more shuriken:
Dash damage + 6 hits of 29 damage shuriken = 224 damage = confirmed kill
Dash damage + 6 hits of 28 damage shuriken = 218 damage = confirmed kill
Dash damage + 6 hits of 25 damage shuriken = 200 damage = confirmed kill
What downsides?
With dash damage, 25 damage shuriken eliminates a 200HP hero in the exact same number of hits as 28 damage of 29 damage shuriken!
Then you want the IMPOSSIBLE!
You want 29 shuriken to magically reduce the “risk” without in any way affecting how skill interacts with chance of an elimination.
Good Genji players are NOT constantly doing it.
You’re fabricating again, misrepresenting a Genji ever using quickmelee as “constant” use.
That’s not a “skill” check.
genjis a difficult one. if you buff him for higher ranks he becomes even more of a nightmare for lower ranks but if he’s not buffed AT ALL then yeah he’s apparently pretty useless in the higher
Genji is playable already, you don’t need someone in OWL to win with him to play him
No, it doesn’t make sense for you to ask “why did I make a separate thread if I tried to make this thread about bastion”, because making a new separate thread does not preclude you from derailing an existing thread.
That’s the non-sequitur.
No it explains how you tried to make this thread about Bastion, because you literally asked, in a thread about Genji, that if the op has sympathy for a different hero.
You’re doing that to yourself.
It isn’t bad, because I did not respond to that post.
It is bad for you, however, that you responded to a post that was not addressed to you with irrelevant points.
As I said, this is a thread about Genji. You serve no purpose here. You’re only here to derail and be a pest.
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Yes it does.
That’s not an explanation.
But I didn’t force you to ignore the rest of the thread, you freely chose to do that and admitted to it.
More baseless false accusations.
How long has it been since YOU talked about Genji in this Genji thread?
Have you said anything about Genji in this Genji thread at all?
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it doesnt make sense though because the whole consensus is that balance is for the higher ranks? this could be said with other heroes who fall victim similarly to genji’s state though as well…
because obviously all heroes are good at low ranks since theres no set meta, viability, and skill level is all over the place. so it really doesnt matter who or what you change, theyre all gonna be useable in gold and below. plat is meh, diamond+ is when you definitely see which heroes are good or bad.
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Genji was meant to be a CQC hero though. no need to mega buff primary imo. I mean the fire rate buff was fine. doesnt help a lot but its there. I kinda want to keep genji as this CQC hero as he is and dont make him good at all ranges lol. keep his niche as strong up close but bad at long range.
He just needs a little more damage which would be 29dmg shurikens as the next logical step.
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It doesn’t. Because you are still here.
It is. You just don’t understand it.
That’s not the point. The point is, it is bad for you to respond to a post that was not addressed to you with irrelevant points. It isn’t bad for me to ignore the rest of the thread.
Many people don’t read every post in the threads they participate in, especially if the threads get very long. Do you even forum?
It’s not baseless because you are still doing it. You did with your first reply to this thread. You did it with your first reply to me and you are still doing it.
You are just being useless and annoying.
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What unconscionable reasoning, it doesn’t matter what people do it only matters who they are.
Condescending may work in your work environment but the same trick won’t work here.
This post wasn’t addressed to YOU either.
And I explained the relevancy.
No I’m not.
Liar.
What use has your contribution to this thread been?
You addressed one combo, being 6 hits (or 3HS) + dash, that’s all you addressed, you said that everything else is irrelevant because you don’t understand why people use melee in a combo for some reason.
Yeah that’s the point isn’t it, the 3Hs+Melee combo is not that viable because it is not a full execution even when done perfectly.
And I still don’t understand why you think a Genji will always have a dash off cooldown or that it is even remotely smart to use dash in a combo that doesn’t have a very good success rate.
I have given you examples, multiple to be exact, but since most Genji combos use quick melee you choose to ignore their existence for some weird reason, even if quick melee has disadvantages, why are you just straight up ignoring the advantages it has and why do you think that because it has a disadvantage all of a sudden it is not a combo anymore, you are just setting up a rule for no reason, even if quick melee didn’t let you dash for a full second it doesn’t make it not useable in a combo all of a sudden.
I’m saying “probably” as I cannot confirm it for every single player in the game or even for the majority, but by looking at my gameplay and others including pros, it is very easy to assume that it is indeed plausible.
Dash can fail if you are too far away or if you dash at the ground in front of the target (as you will try to do if you want to hit a combo on them) but miss it while still being close, but that is not the why the combo will fail usually, the reason that it will fail will be missing the shot or the target moving in a weird way thus not allowing you to get the headshots needed, also you can be stunned mid dash for example.
As I have stated before, quick melee is very good when you need the extra bit of damage but you don’t want to fully commit your cooldown in case the execution fails, or if you don’t have dash off cooldown but you are still close enough to the enemy to do such combos, which is reasonable, if you played Genji you would know that you can’t just wait for dash every time you engage, sometimes you need to flank and take risks even if you don’t have the escape option beforehand.
Generally, you will rather kill the target before you leave, otherwise, you just gave the enemy healers ult charge and likely the enemy player as well, which is not that good of a trade for you as their ults will likely be counters to your’s, so as much as dashing away may save you it is not something that you will commonly do when in that situation, you would rather dash the ground and get another shot in if needed unless you are really low and absolutely need to disengage.
That’s literally an example that from a game I had yesterday lmao, I used it because I know it is a plausible situation as I myself have been in it, guess what, I did the 3HS+Melee combo and she survived with 2 hp left, coach gunned away and got healed by their Ana, all because of the difference between 28 and 29 damage.
How exactly? for showing you that it’s not the smartest thing to use dash every time you attempt to do a combo? Like how is that bluffing? I could maybe understand how it is somewhat condescending to some extent, but bluffing? really?
If you will ask me I would rather have 30 damage and increase the spread to 10 and the recovery time back to 0.75s, I just understand that at the moment the best shot will be 29 damage, and it requires minimal changes to the hero.
I have never heard it as an argument to not using a combo, like never, no pro has ever said it, no guide, not even some random youtube in the community, my guess is that it made up as I have never seen it before although I’m in this community for over 4 years, and I fail to see the reasoning behind you not using quick melee although it has a very small flaw and much bigger reward, it seems like a bluff since it is an unreasonable reasoning that just shuts down the whole argument that is to be made.
If I told you that the earth is flat, and you tried to convince me by showing evidence then only for me to say that the evidence doesn’t make sense since the Illuminati is fabricating it so you will believe it is unreasonable, to say the least, yet it still shuts down any way of you to convince me that the earth is not flat, do you see where the problem stems from?
His dps will literally go down from 123.5 to 110.3, that’s 13 less damage that he can output in a second, which adds up a lot, that’s an 11% ult charge rate decrease essentially, let alone the amount of kills which he will not get because of a target having something like 10 hp remaining because your shot now deals 9 damage less.
let alone how ineffective of a buff it is to decrease the spread, Genji issues don’t come close this his spread, and if a Genji player misses, the spread is not the reason that he missed in the first place, it’s a non issue, you are trying to “fix” something that isn’t broken, Genji’s issue is clear, his burst output is lacking, adding more combos that pass the threshold will solve it, and 29 damage does that.
Is my guess a fabrication? or is it that the 29 damage buff will have no effect on Bastion?
Either way, both don’t fit it well…
Define massively, going from 3s to 2.72s is not that big of a difference when there are heroes who can insta-delete a person from the fight…
29 damage doesn’t change anything when it comes to Bastion and the amount of shots needed to kill him, it will be the exact same as before…
What does that have to do with the interaction? it’s irrelevant if he gets a buff or doesn’t, and if that buff is good or not also doesn’t change that the shots needed to kill are just the same.
No, it’s an overall nerf because the nerf out weights the buff, 6 spread is just not worth losing 3 damage per shuriken.
Do you want me to make a poll about it to see? I’d be down to make one, which could also involve stuff like if melee is good in combos for example.
The reasoning is that 6 spread will not help him a lot as he is already consistent enough when it comes to hitting shots, and a certain point the spread being too low will become a nerf, as it would more heavily punish the slightest misses, and compared to that 25 damage is a massive nerf, which at its base will decrease the ult charge by 11%, and that’s just from it existing, don’t even get me started on shots to kill and how much of a nerf it is when facing tanks.
Only that winning the lottery is just dumb luck and very rare and that hitting a combo requires skill and effort and is not that rare at all.
I as a plat player could hit combos well enough when it was 12 spread, not that it is 9 spread and I’m around mid diamond I can hit them with a very high success rate, and I’m not the best player in the game, it just takes training and time to master, the only issue with combos is that they will not always grant you the reward needed to get the wanted value, being a confirmed kill.
once again it is the 3HS+Melee and the Dash+3HS+Melee that you keep disregarding, if you were to have 29 damage it would be able to kill a 200hp target and a 250hp target respectively, but with the change you purpose of 25 damage, the burst output will be cut by 24 damage leading to a target that remains with 20 hp, when now it leaves them with 2hp, which is at least much easier to finish if your team is helping.
The reward is the target getting killed, if you don’t increase the damage you will still get to that same result as you did before, as you still hit the target with all 3 shurikens to the head like you did before, you need to understand the difference between consistent aim and consistent damage output, although his spread is consistent enough, his burst output isn’t, those do not contradict each other as they refer to different parts of his kit.
You will still want to be in melee range most of the time, all it does is make it easier to a bad player that only knows how to fan + dash, as now he could do it from a bit farther away, but that’s it, a good player will still be at risk when fighting in the back lines even if it is from 6m instead of 4m away from the target, which is also unlikely to be done by the Genji player as you will be much harder to hit if you are up close and jumping above the enemy rather than be a couple of meters in front of them, either way, the risk comes from being in the back lines of the enemy team, it’s a risky position, and the reward isn’t more available now than before, as the damage didn’t change, so by hitting the target with a combo they are still left with low hp, nothing really changed for the good player.
But they can die faster instead of requiring another shot they will die to the combo letting the Genji get away faster and stay alive, because otherwise he may die, the reward is the enemy dead, and by having more effective ways to kill the enemy you have more reward for doing them correctly in the right situation.
Again, you just give one situation and disregard most of his combos…
But only with dash, see, you just remove the whole counter-argument by giving some bs reason as to why quick melee is not a good combo finisher, then you have nothing to contradict what you are saying, as you just disregard it without any rational reasoning.
But it will reduce the risk, you will now need just to perform a quick combo and get out, instead of performing a combo shooting again and getting out, see, you are just going to be less time behind the enemy lines, thus reducing the risk.
Just look at them play, it’s not that hard to be fair.
This is the last video Necros has uploaded, just look at how many times he uses quick melee in the video, just look for a couple of minutes and see how much he does it, you can also look at other Genji players if you want, just know that a lot of them have stopped playing or stopped playing him, but you can still look at some games of players like Water for example, even though they are a bit outdated, using melee in combos has been a thing for years.
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It’s precisely what you do, not who you are.
You don’t understand it either way.
My point was actually relevant. Yours isn’t. You pretty much tried to do what he did.
Then you need self-reflection.
You tried to derail with your first reply to this thread and your first reply to me, and you are still doing it by dishonestly arguing you weren’t trying to derail it.
Getting you out of here.
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and im telling you hes hard to get value out of by default and he stops being good against people that can aim and dont panic when he gets on top of them. i know what a noobstomper is and when the genji player is also a noob hes not effective in the same light as flashbang, rocket punch or storm arrow. all 3 i mentioned are better noob stomp heroes
this dude really thinks quickmelee isnt important when genji utilizes it more than any other hero?!
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More of a skill check, certainly, but doing less damage overall is not really concerning. And even if you argue that it’s a less forgiving weapon now, that’s still largely irrelevant among of group of highly skilled players, regardless.
Back in the early days of launch period, yes. This was also the time that every damage hero was rendered irrelevant. Brigitte hasn’t been able to combo Tracer for years at this point.
Both true.
Number of possible damage heroes on a single team has also been reduced to two. Tanks largely ignore barriers, regardless. Only a handful of Supports are impacted by barriers.
False. Orisa is now moves faster while firing, Halt is on a lower cooldown than ever before. Fortify is now immunizes against critical hits, and Orisa has more health/armor than she used to. To say nothing of her faster projectile speed, leading to greater overall accuracy.
Sigma’s largest and more impactful reductions came in the form of his barrier and Gravitic Flux ultimate. His damage is lower, but still shreds and still covers a wider area than Junkrat’s and Pharah’s explosions combined. Kinetic Grasp remains ever useful.
False.
You’re not, but it’s irrelevant. Reinhardt still moves faster than he did in GOATS and still have 1600 health barrier - twice the sum of four members of your team’s total health. D.va’s Defense Matrix still allows her to cover her team within 10 meters and she can easily take the lead to further cut that damage. She’s still faster and more manuveurable than most Damage-role heroes, and still has greater success with her ultimate than any Damage-hero, to say nothing of how low cost it is.
Won’t change the damage output, but it will change the risk. You need to understand that, and why Blizzard is reluctant to revert it and instead opted for a harsher maximum falloff.
It’s not powercreep because the damage never changed. Tracer still requires the same amount of shots to kill as she did back then, and she does now. She’s just 2 meters safer at doing it.
You clearly didn’t read what I said.
Exactly, and YOU want to promote it despite the flaws.
I don’t understand why you would think Genji would attempt a combo without waiting for dash to come off cooldown.
You JUST SAID such combos aren’t currently viable.
You’ve NEVER listed advantages.
You cannot confirm it for anywhere close to 51% of the players in the game which is what probably means.
You don’t mean “probably” you mean “possibly” but you don’t even mean that as you admit the 3s+melee combo is not even possible to deal 200 damage.
Don’t use it when far away then
The hitbox would still hit if you land in front of them.
You just said it would inevitably fail because if damage thresholds. You’re talking about what is done.
The times you DON’T are the times you don’t need a combo.
You didn’t read what I said.
That’s even more contrived, it’s specific to one specific game 1 person played, not representative of the whole game.
You never showed that.
Claiming isn’t showing.
NO YOU DON’T
You want 30 damage, you know that’s too much so you just set an arbitrary half-measure.
No.
That in absolutely no way relates to how quickmelee is a bad finisher, how you also admitted it WOULDN’T be used because the combo doesn’t deal 200 damage:
So you’re blatantly contradicting yourself insisting on this combo’s relevance then saying “of course it isn’t relevant”.
You want to elevate an unproven combo!
Which is actually closer to where it WAS for years!
28 damage shuriken and 0.75 sec recovery is 112dps.
And it used to be 672 damage per mag, including reload that was 89.6dps.
With 25 damage shuriken and 30 shuriken capacity, that’s over 90dps including reloads.
The difference is undoing the pointless damage creep and serving the more important purpose of making it more practical for Genji to output that damage.
The only reason you oppose this spread buff is because you’ve already made up your mind that 29 damage shuriken is somehow a perfect compromise and anything else is a threat to that.
That’s not really how ult charge works, you don’t get it for damage output but damage dealt to enemies.
Impossible.
28 damage shuriken overkills by 18 damage.
25 damage shuriken doesn’t overkill.
By the way this doesn’t count to ult charge, only damage dealt to their health is ult charge.
So if Roadhog headshots someone with a full blast of his 165 damage alt fire on someone with 1HP does he get 165x2 ult charge? No he gets 1 ult charge as he was only able to deal 1 damage before they died.
Uhhh YES!
“Or is it that 1+1 = Banana” you’re just asking things that blatantly aren’t true to imply I believe absurd things.
Okay, if 10% doesn’t matter let’s increase Genji’s attack recovery from 0.68 sec to 0.75 sec
Oh wait, it only doesn’t matter when it’s someone else…
You didn’t read what I said, you’re again just talking over me filling the space with non-answers to gaslight me as if I never gave a reason.
That is WHY it wouldn’t be a buff because the hits to kill are the same!
You have not a single valid reason why.
No because there’s such a high chance you’d cheat. You’d ask a question like:
“Would you like 6 degrees of spread if it RUINED Genji and made him totally non-viable (and 6 spread would be worthless anyway)” or something like that.
You’d never JUST ask if they’d value less spread as you know then you’d be wrong, someone WOULD value it.
You JUST SAID the risk was too high for the reward despite the reward being huge of both securing an elimination on a very protected squishy hero AND resets an 8 sec cooldown.
No it wouldn’t because the hits to kill are IDENTICAL on all the heroes Genji needs to do better against.
A miss or hit has the exact same effect on the outcome.
You should have started there then you could have ended it there.
As the shots to kill is the same on all the top heroes!
Well enough could mean anything.
In this case it doesn’t matter, you want 29 damage shuriken and you see 6 degrees of spread as a threat to getting that as it’s an alternative you refuse to really consider.
No I keep refuting it.
Now you want to insta-kill Reaper or Mei?
NOT need an insta-kill combo on such heroes who are struggling in too many ranks.
No, you’re talking as if 29 shuriken is already implemented.
yes it is because of damage thresholds.
Wrong again.
And the rest of that paragraph is built on that wrong assumption.
Melee range is 3.5m
at 3.5m the 9 spread is 0.55m wide.
At 3.5m the 6 spread is 0.36m.
One is obviously far more practical for headshots.
you’re contradicting yourself, you’ve already said that Fan + melee is bad because that doesn’t execute!
You want players to do something ALREADY that you know is bad before 29 damage shuriken is even implemented.
This isn’t about that, this is about the practicality of headshots.
And you CANNOT precisely control the range, that’s not skill that is LUCK.
After you dash in the time it takes for you to realign they will move in a random direction, they may accidentally move towards you, they may move away, you CANNOT react instantly to this.
No they cannot.
Despite your denials, they don’t magically die faster because the Shuriken’s deal more damage than necessary.
No I give reasons why the only other proposed combos cannot work.
it’s not BS, it’s REAL.
You admit you won’t find it in the game because it doesn’t hit any thresholds yet despite the lack of proof of it’s viability you insist this is the way forward for the hero.
Liar.
I have “rational reasoning” and you lie that I didn’t.
But it’s NOT quick because for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON you are either deciding to attack before dash is off cooldown or refuse to use dash so you’re slowly running up to them trying to get within quick-melee range.
When you run directly at someone you cannot also A+D strafe (if you do you’ll never catch up) so you’re super easy to hit.
The hitbox of dash is gargantuan, it’s like Hanzo’s dragons but 10x faster.
That is NOT what you talked about, in that video Necros is constantly using dash to deal damage the problem is this supposed GM player doesn’t have the skills to stay in GM, he keeps missing with shurikens and he’s trying to compensate for his poor accuracy with quickmelee.
So the ACTUAL combo we are talking about is:
Dash damage + 2 or 3 shuriken bodyshots + quickmelee + 2 or 3 shuriken bodyshots
THAT is the important damage calculation, landing on average 5 shuriken in 2 r-clicks.
Let’s solve this for 25 damage first:
50 (dash) + (5x25) shuriken + 30 (melee) = 205 damage = confirmed kill
Okay, let’s solve for the OPPOSITE extreme, the worst aim, landing only 2 shurikens per right click (4 total) but the highest proposed shuriken damage:
50 (dash) + 4x29 (shuriken) + 30 (melee) = 196 damage = failed combo
Look at WHY Necros is doing such terrible damage: his aim SUCKS!
Necros keeps missing because of spread, he just cannot keep the aim centred enough and shuriken are missing due to the spread.
So once again, 29 damage shuriken WON’T HELP with such heroes but a narrower spread WILL help,.
Then you have utterly failed.
Look at me, talking about Genji in a Genji thread. I bet that makes you FURIOUS.
You WISH I wasn’t talking about Genji as you hope nobody realises what a terrible idea 29 damage shuriken would be.
No I think the 3-headshot quickmelee combo with no dash damage is useless.
I repeat:
I’M TALKING ABOUT NOT USING DASH DAMAGE YET SOMEHOW LANDING 3 HEADSHOTS.
If you’re using dash and your aim sucks then try to compensate for your poor aim with quickmelee then it matters.
What DOES NOT MATTER is whether you do 25 damage per shuriken, 28 damage per shuriken or 29 damage per shuriken, the number of hits from shuriken needed to kill doesn’t matter when you attempt that “combo” as necros does in that clip.
Necros has picked up bad habits from when it was 30 damage per shuriken, it’s why he can’t stay in GM.
When it was 30 damage shuriken you could get away with such abysmally poor combo as:
dash + hit only 2/3 shuriken bodyshot + quickmelee + hit only 2/3 shuriken bodyshot
= 50 + 30x2 + 30 + 30x2
= 200 damage
Only 30 damage shuriken will hit that threshold.
29 damage shuriken will not hit that threshold.
If you hit with FIVE SHURIKEN in that combo then shuriken damage can be as low as 25 and still secure the kill.
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Look, you are way off, like I can’t do anything about someone that lacks practical experience and claims that he knows everything and will not back down from that because of something that is so small and impractical that may theoretically be a problem very rarely, so what I’m suggesting is to make that poll, and before you start accusing me of cheating for no reason, I’ll show you it before I make it public and you will tell me if it is fine, then we can see what other players think about it, does that sound rational and reasonable to you? would the input of tens of players who know how to play Genji will convince you? or will it be all for nothing?
I’m just trying to get to an understanding, and it is not possible when talking one on one in this argument as you just dismiss my points.
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i guess maybe a rework is an option. nerf ult but buff his main kit that of course means a loss of identity. no one likes reworks and it could actually make him worse if its not well-planned out.
i think he is fine on ladders in mid ranks and maybe a little bit higher but bad at the highest levels of gameplay when everyone is so super aware and almost have aim as good as aimbots