I’m going to respond to this in the other thread not in this Genji thread.
If you’re standing in front of your shield, you will get hooked.
If you’re standing in his LOS, you will get hooked.
If you didn’t pay attention to him, you will get hooked.
OWL players that don’t overextend, stay out of his effective range, and watch where everyone goes will not get hooked by him, as he preys on mistakes. Hook is where his consistency lies, both in his combo and his damage.
This is without mentioning that peel in OWL is far greater than in ladder, another thing that will negate hook usage.
The difference is they aren’t dealing with him at all. They aren’t engaging him, they aren’t stunning him, CC’ing him, shooting him. They are ignoring him.
This is why Seoul won Hanamura against Excelsior; they ignored Profit, which allowed him to land a large Nanoblade that won the game.
Excelsior saw no threat in Profit, they put in no effort to stop him, so they lost.
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Every hero cannot constantly stay either behind walls or barriers, too many heroes lack the range.
That’s not “smart play” that’s obviously completely impractical especially considering how easily barriers can be destroyed now.
You didn’t talk about overextending.
Being EVER without a barrier or not hiding from the enemy is NOT “overextending”.
Overextending is things like pushing through a choke when you’re defending.
You’re clearly ignoring what I said about heroes who deal trash damage outside of 20m.
And “paying attention” isn’t poor positioning it is… not paying attention.
Being able to dodge a hook isn’t being in the right position, it’s being in the wrong position but succeeding in a reflex check.
They don’t have to, by not shooting him they nullify his greatest strength which is deflect.
Why even TRY to stun him? Why risk him deflecting it?
So you’re complaining… that Genji won the game for them?!?
You can’t claim they were right to ignore Genji then claim they were wrong to ignore Genji as it allowed Genji to make a game-winning play.
So… Genji IS a threat!
You can’t use their decision as proof Genji isn’t a threat because their calculation was wrong.
It’s true that genji is a good pick against bastion, who is weak. But that doesn’t mean we can’t help him either.
That’s like saying we can’t buff reaper, because he counters tanks, some of which are weak rn.
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Well we can’t just damage-buff Reaper.
Just like we shouldn’t have damage-buffed Genji.
Genji needed something and it wasn’t more damage of either faster attack rate nor more shuriken damage.
Notice I didn’t just try to give Bastion more damage to fix that hero.
Genji needs something like:
- Health Reset on kill
- Mobility independent of securing kills (to escape)
- More consistent protection with Deflect (beam damage reduction?)
Genji weirdly gets a dash reset at the precise time he doesn’t need it, when he’s secured a kill. What he needs after a fight is to regain all the health he lost in that fight.
Deflect can’t reflect beams but it could reduce damage to Genji by 50%.
The thing is, from what I hear genjis problem is getting through any sustain whatsoever, as sustain and anti dive has seen a massive rise (I.e brig, baptiste, moira, mcree buffs, torb rework/buff). He could have all the utility he wants but if he cant kill anything it wont really matter.
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In neither of these three cases did I ever say it was. I’m providing examples for why he’s not played in OWL, he relies on too many things that simply aren’t present in OWL.
Because Excelsior had stuns that went through Deflect? You can Flashbang him over it, and Mei goes right through. Instead of taking the risk and dealing with him, they just didn’t.
Would you stop putting words in my mouth? I never said anything they did was right or wrong.
I’m addressing the fact that - even though he was ignored and more than enabled - Profit provided very little outside of Nanoblade. This is not a discussion about Excelsior’s shortcomings or Seoul’s teamwork, but instead about how this is the second time an OWL player that’s extremely good with Genji provided nothing outside of ultimates.
In order:
- Health resets on kill don’t matter if he doesn’t have the damage potential to even confirm those kills
- He already has two forms of mobility he can use to escape
- Beams are his counters, damage reduction against beams is a bandaid over his weaknesses
While I would be open to trying something like this, I don’t personally think it’s what he needs. The purpose of dash resets is to get in, confirm, and get out.
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And why can’t he kill heroes like McCree?
Because McCree has 225HP and Genji just can’t reach that damage threshold with 28 damage shurikens and Genji cannot reach it with 29 damage shurikens either. And when Genji get’s close and can’t get a kill on McCree then he can be safely flashed by McCree aiming for the ground.
It’s futile to increase damage to chase this, that would be “damage creep” you just need to revert McCree’s health buff.
Those explanations do not make sense and you don’t address my objections at all.
Like how Reaper or Tracer are supposed to always stay behind a barrier.
Well if you’re going to be like that and act as if your words have no meaning then you have made it impossible to have a normal conversation with you.
This is clearly designed to make yourself immune to valid criticism by acting as if your word mean nothing only the very instant the meaning might not be in your favour.
Any damage level HIGH ENOUGH for McCree’s 225HP is TOO HIGH on other heroes.
The problem is a REALLY highly picked hero - McCree - Genji cannot reliably secure a kill on.
One of which is useless against beam attacks.
The other is likely not available at the very moment you need it.
What does this mean?
Pick a criticism, should this weakness be intentionally kept to serve a purpose or is this measure not good enough and more must be done to reduce this weakness.
This is gish galloping, you’ve given me a smorgasbord of contradictory arguments and you don’t seem to care they contradict each other as long as they contradict me.
No, you don’t really believe that.
If you did then you wouldn’t mind the damage of Swift Strike being reduced to 30 damage.
You’re quite happy to use it for other purposes which depend on 50 damage.
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I’d suggest going back and reading that part of his post, or even just that sentence again. You aren’t disagreeing at all but you seem to be under the impression that you are. Dash is used for mobility and confirming kills, as that person already said. I don’t think anyone would mind if dash was reduced to 30 damage as long as he received compensation buffs to allow him to still at least achieve damage at all comparable to other heroes.
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They didn’t say “One of the purposes (plural) of dash reset is”
They said “The purpose (singular) of dash reset it”
I can only go by what they said, what they said is that there is not other purpose.
You may know them, and you may know that they didn’t mean what they said. But I don’t know that person, I have to go by what they say.
If that isn’t what they meant then they can speak for themselves.
“Confirm” implies doing the damage to confirm the kill, and you know as much. What else would confirm mean in this context? I don’t know this person and I’m no scientist, that’s just what confirm means in this context.
So yes, the above person thinks Genji uses swift strike reset to deal damage to secure the kill, and get out.
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That’s not what is in dispute, the dispute is that dash MUST be used to “get out” when in fact it can be used to immediately attack another enemy… not “get out”.
That is my issue where they categorically said “it’s to get in, (do SOMETHING to confirm a kill), and get out”
I am fed up of all these excuses for a hero that blithely insist that abilities are only used 1 and only 1 way and they must be kept strong for these moderate reasons and just flat out deny they’re used any other way.
Quite simply: you get a reset on Swift Strike when you get a kill:
- It doesn’t matter how you get the kill
- It doesn’t matter when you get the kill
- You are under no compulsion to use dash immediately
- You are under no compulsion to use dash to disengage
You might use it to escape… you might not.
You cannot categorically say it is or is not or what the “purpose” of the reset is.
Certainly Genji has a VAST clip size so he certainly doesn’t need to retreat to reload, if health did reset AND you confirmed a kill then why would you want to retreat at that moment? You just made them become a man down now for no reason you’re going to run away to do… what?
It can be used to attack another enemy, but this is usually not the case. There are enemy cooldowns to keep track of and lingering around enemies after you’ve made yourself known is not usually beneficial.
The main problem is that your solutions to replacing dash reset would just weaken the character with no gain. Having your health reset after killing someone is not very beneficial when you have such a small health pool in the first place. You are still left in a vulnerable position with little options for defending yourself from many common picks in the game.
Your second suggestion was a new mobility option, which I’m curious to hear more about. Would no damage on dash resets satisfy this or would you genuinely like to introduce a mobility option independent of dash? It’d have to be some form of horizontal movement to be at all useful to escape before cooldowns are pumped into you.
Beam damage is not that much of a worry when you have the option to dash away after a kill. That is precisely when he needs to have the option available to disengage. Beam damage killing Genji quickly through deflect is healthy and keeps him from confidently being able to linger in your backline.
This is healthy game design. Would you feel as if you deserved to die because your team’s sniper secured a kill you started on, and coincidentally stole your mobility?
If you had to kill someone with dash to reset the kill it’d be far too risky in most situations to commit dash as there are many things that can affect how quickly somoene dies. Would you not be better off just playing a lower risk mid-long range character?
You’re right, that’s consistent with every other mobility option in the game. That’s just what it’s most commonly used for. Dashing in, killing, and getting out safely.
The flexibility in resets is part of what make dash reset feel consistent for the player.
This just comes from not playing the character. If you’ve just killed someone, most often a support, you don’t want to find yourself out of position any longer. The enemy team is surely paying attention to you now and at heart, you’re a low damage 200 health character.
Retreating to the center of your team is not making them a “man down”, it’s just smart play. I misunderstood you, but most of this still applies. They’re a man down but you’re still as vulnerable as most other 200 HP heroes at that point. You cannot eternally exist in melee range, you just don’t have the healthbar to stay, even with a health reset your max health is low enough that you can die in an instant to a small amount of focusing.
Wait for your cooldowns to come back up and poke from afar, because without dash mobility and damage your dps is too low and inconsistent to stay? In most cases if you stay, you get popped. Quick kills are king and they allow you to avoid getting focused.
There’s a delicate balance though, and damage buffs worry me. Nanoblade is a perfect example of what happens when you combine dash reset and high damage. 29 is probably the highest shuriken need to go.
My thinking was too resource based when the most important thing it to regain the element of surprise, the whole point of dashing in suddenly is to surprise, it’s not a surprise any more the longer you are there.
The problem is you need to get the kill.
Failing to get a kill has the double effect of both saving Genji’s target AND stranding Genji where they can be surrounded, which has a pressure on the game to constantly want more and more power for Genji as so much is riding on securing a kill no matter what.
Genji doesn’t need high rate of damage.
Genji needs more reliable damage.
Getting more damage is an inefficient way of serving the goal of reliable damage.
Here’s my change:
- Genji’s right click spread reduced to 6 degrees
- Shuriken damage reduced to 25
25 damage per shuriken is 75 damage per right click, with 50 damage Dash that’s reliable elim on 200HP heroes, this damage would be fitting for the faster attack rate that Genji now has and is on par with Ashe. 6 degrees spread means headshots are viable to go for dahs damage and headshot.
But the elephant in the room is still McCree, his 225HP means only 2 types of shuriken damage hit any relevant thresholds. Either 25 damage frags McCree in 3 right clicks or 30 damage shuriken will eliminate McCree with dash and 2 right clicks. 29 damage shuriken is just too little:
29 x 6 = 174 damage + 50 (swift strike) = 224 damage
McCree survives with 1HP, flashbangs you and fans the hammer. Ouch!
And McCree is such an important target because of his stun and how he’s such a common enemy. McCree NEEDs to go to 200HP on way or another.
Other than that, Genji needs the reliable damage.
if only aim and reflex are needed to get top 500, then alot of people will easy achieve that
u need alot more than that
for example flats is top 500 main tank, and his dps is like plat/diamond, his aim is not good
he only managed to get to top 500 because he understand the game and have alot of game sense
most of my friend who has master rank on support / master on tank have aim like plat / gold, because i beat them on 1v1 even though im only plat
Game sense is not necessarily real understanding of the whole game.
They just are pretty good at guesstimating where other players will be and when they’ll be distracted but outside that they may be clueless and they can get away with it because it just doesn’t affect the way they play the game.
It’s like a cook who can only cook a few dishes and has come up with totally wrong theories of cooking that do not work outside of his or her area of expertise and when they try to apply their flash-frying technique to baking a cake you get an abomination.
what i am trying to say is, top 500 its not about only aim and reflexes like the other guy said
while top 500 are not guaranteed u can balance the game, i still trust them more compared to say like silver/gold player
Fair enough but what they have beyond that is not necessarily a sufficient understanding of the game.
It may be a very distorted understanding of the game but is “the right answer for the wrong reasons”.
You shouldn’t, a lot are in silver/gold because they’re middle aged and their reflexes are shot, but they have been playing online FPS games for 30 years. They know what they are doing because they cannot depend on their reflexes.
thats not a excuse
i have a 40 year old friend who have slow reflexes, but he can play tank just fine, because he had the gamesense and knowledge of the game, he high diamond rank on tank (peak master), while his dps are low silver, because he cant aim
if u stuck at gold with tank / support then simply your gamesense and knowledge are not that good, because if my friend who only solo play most of time, with 1-2 hours everyday can do it, then everyone should be able to
You are missing the point, you say “instead of making him better when good players use him let’s make him easier for bad players”, the idea to increase the damage by even 1 dmg comes from his need to secure a kill using a combo, a bad player will not have a lot of benefit from having that increase in damage as the 4.4 dps increase will be hardy noticeable by someone who spams, a good player, on the other hand, will be finely able to get a kill and not be left a target that has 2 hp after flawlessly executing a combo, which could otherwise lead to the target getting heal or you getting stunned and killed.
all of your suggestions will just decrease the skill required to play Genji while not answering the issue at hand, all you are really doing here is make him easier and more annoying to play against.
This will just make him more survivable if he is able to get the kill, but this will ultimately do nothing a lot of the time, and when it does it will just feel cheesy, this also removes the risk of going to the backlines, as you could just get a random final blow and get a lot of health back, which will be very strong but only rarely, we already have something that is strong but doesn’t happen often with Genji’s kit, being nano blade, but that doesn’t make him good, all it does is make him win a fight when it is pulled off but at the trade-off of not doing anything valuable in between, the issue with Genji now is the consistency of the value, adding this does nothing to fix the issue.
Again, this will just make him easier by removing risk, the whole idea of dash reset is to give you the getaway key but at a cost, letting him get away from a fight easily doesn’t provide anything of value, sure he may be alive not, but he just got in and out and did nothing, and this still doesn’t address the issue of consistency.
This is just removing counterplay, which ultimately decreases the skill needed to use the ability, deflect cancel does a great job at not making deflect super punishable, but it should still be punishable to an extent…
And again this doesn’t increase the value he is getting throughout the game.
The game is not a 1v1, you get in, get a kill, and get out, that’s the idea behind dash, the problem is that you can’t consistently get a kill since you have breakpoints which leaves a target with 2hp, that way you can’t get out since you didn’t get the kill, every competent Genji player knows this and understand that this is the problem with him at the moment, thus you have people saying that he needs an increase in his damage.
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