You have anything better to do outside of that range?
You’re stuck with your tank, either the tank is close enough for you to use the beam or you’re stuck with the secondary.
Depends on the situation.
I mean, it’s true that fat tanks and deflect Genji are the only heroes that the beam is good against AT FIRST. but if you manage to charge it up to level 3 anything goes. Level 3 is absolute madness being the 3rd strongest primary fire in the game after Bastion & Reaper. 156.29 damage per second if I add reload to the calculations!!
And that without the turrets who do another +120 damage which makes her the 2nd strongest hero in term of damage when all of her abilities are at use.
Usually enemies would run the tanks infront and the dps and support behind so Symmetra’s beam can charge on big targets, if the enemies don’t react fast enough Symmetra turns into a big problem- a glass cannon.
So yeah, right now the all protective comp of her is pretty dead considering Orisa-Hog state, and how weak all the other stationary heroes not to mention her beam is pretty short, but Symmetra got amazing potential at level 3
Why play a hero that needs the teams chip damage when I can just play a hero that can rely on themselves
That’s just the counterintuitive nature of syms gun. It has bad synergy with her kit. Her tp can’t be fully utilized because her gun is short range and high charge up.
Her combat changed dramatically from 2.0 to 3.0. Her effective range was greatly increased yet all of the old utility of her gun was removed. So she can no longer pierce lock on and such.
Alongside her major gun changes her instant access combat ability was removed. Removing photon barrier changed almost every one of her matchups in this game.
Her combat has been greatly altered with every rework she received. If you think her combat didn’t change I don’t believe that you really learned the other versions of sym.
I agree level 3 beam is quite good. The issue with Sym is that a level 1 beam and a level 3 beam have too much of a DPS gap to even be considered on the same ballpark.
That’s the main issue with balancing Symmetra numbers. Everyone assumes she will be walking around with a max beam full time, and balance her around that. So in the 90% of the time you do not have a level 3 beam in the most important moments of the fight, you are just too weak to do the job they expect you to do.
If they want Sym to fight with her beam primarily, they need to either remove the ramp-up mechanic (which was a mechanic to balance the autolock, in the first place), or tight the difference by a big margin, so that she isn’t required to hope to survive for over 2 seconds before she deal actual good damage.
I’d set level 1 beam to 120 DPS, and set level 2 at 150 DPS. Those values are on par with your average DPS values, and level 3 would be a (still sizeable) 50% damage boost, not a 200% damage boost.
Realistically speaking, you would never have a level 3 beam at the same time an enemy is being hit by three turrets. It may happens in certain situations, but most of the time? You need the enemy to move into your turrets while you are beaming them with a max level beam or close to that, which rarely happens outside of overtime.
If you need to set the turrets in reaction to them engaging you, by the time your turrets are set, either you already melted them with your ramped up beam before the turrets set, or you have to start from scratch the ramp-up and the turrets will kill them before you even reach level 3.
So no, adding turret DPS on top of max beam DPS is as much a fantasy as the 100% headshot red Widowmaker that always wreck your team.
I will say, at least sym players actually use her orb now. way back when sym 3.0 dropped veteran syms kept complaining about not being able to secure kills with her new beam, and looked completely passed her orbs. I was always ignored whenever I tried teaching them to use orbs instead
sir it does 60dps for 1.2 seconds, why go for that when you can do 120 burst damage every second. Im not a great symm, however, ive found that beam is only worth when you can find a shield or tank to charge on otherwise youre better off just going for orbs unless you have REALLY good tracking
I remember someone doing the math assuming 100% accuracy on both, and pure beam would only surpass pure orb damage after ~8 seconds of fighting. Which pretty much makes the conclusion that beam is only better than orb if you can milk charge from a big shield while being at a safe distance, because outside of barriers, you don’t need over 1k personal damage before the teamfight is settled.
Because a target can easily come in front of your ball and block it. A shield or a body can easily stop it. I am not saying to do not ever use the balls. I am saying you need to consider the situation and adjust accordingly. Its much easier to follow up with a beam in certain scenarios that would block the balls from hitting the target.
No expectations there. The discharge time was also increased to the point that you don’t sit nuking a single target for 4 seconds or more. So, again…
That’s your opinion in conflict with theirs. You can disagree with them and that’s totally fine, however, that’s not reality.
Symmetra has neither; low effective range; low sustain, low mobility (although it is limited), and low access to burst. None of this is true.
They know their design better than anyone else here, they have access to loads of informational data which no one has here. They are unlikely to be biased against anything, since they created the character and the kit in the first place. The is specious reasoning.
Evidence to back this up?
They’ve been clear on this bug fix, noted that there was going to be a huge shift in damage, and made subsequent changes. Believe it or not, patches take weeks to prepare and test, they’re more aware of how the changes are going to effect the game better than anyone else (usually), and created subsequent patches in follow-up to inevitably tweak the results.
A 40% to 70% increase in damage output needed to be adjusted. If you cannot fathom basic understanding of game balance, I don’t know what to say, but you aren’t qualified to be making arguments to the contrary. Also, lacking evidence to indicate she was underperforming.
They aren’t logical conclusions. Blizzard designed the game, the character. the kit, hired the voice actor to perform the role. Re-tooled the kit, and continues to pour development resources and time and energy into the design. Logically, that does not indicate a bias against Symmetra. The fact that they’ve continually change, and re-tool Symmetra also indicates that they have a very strong understanding how Symmetra is supposed to work.
You’re making assumptions here about static and dynamic defenses which I never stated, nor implied. An active, aggressive defense is generally welcomed in Overwatch. Think of it like North American Football.
Except in the case of Widowmaker vs. Symmetra. The two don’t play in anyway similar. You need to compare Symmetra to Torbjorn, builder to builder.
Childishly irrelevant.
No, however, Sentries are a limiting factor to how much Symmetra can actively go after targets. Teleporter also limits how much space you can control and deny; similar limits are placed on Torbjorn.
No, that makes no logical sense.
If a character isn’t performing to their vision, they are free to change it so that it more closely matches it, and then fine-tuning it so that it performs well. This has nothing to do with whether or not the character’s usage or popularity is high or low. There are cases where a character can be reworked to be made more popular, sure, but that’s not a contributing reason for a specific re-tooling or re-work.
Never mentioned or implied. It was something they thought they could try internally again. They had tried it before and it didn’t pan out very well, and it sounds like something to try again, but in a more controlled and off-the-wall experiment. Nothing to be guaranteed, but just for discovery and as a small project with little consequence… for not at least.
It has nothing to do with whether they know their character or not.
She still sets up sentries to guard space, she still pokes, threatens and suppresses with Orbs. She still nukes faces with the combined power of sentries and her primary when close enough.
The biggest changes come with her utility, and it has always been her utility that’s seen the more radical changes.
When you have no argument worth to argue, insult the person, and belittle them; because that will show them that you have no merit worth considering to the point that only insults are your only retort.
Flagged and reported.
Then change it right now. Do it. Show me that you have the decision-making power at Blizzard and change it right now.
Dont even bother Yin is obviously a contrarian internet tough guy that only wants to make you write text walls to reply with ‘‘no thats not true because I say so’’.
There is no discussion to be had there. Just mute him.
Come on be serious with me here lol. You understand if you go broad enough anyone sounds similar. Crap both mercy and mecree can deal burst damage with their pistol.
My gripe on the combat was a clear indication of how widely different sym gets once you start reaching the end of her skill cap.
The way that both version of sym spam the enemy is widely different on its own as one can shoot through shields while one is completely countered by it.
Going broad enough to the point where you just be like aww yes both syms poke at range literally tells nothing. And is highly misconstrueding The way both characters actually play.
Just look at the implications of photon barrier alone and you should see how different their combat styles are. One needs teammates to cover them one can actually secure their own safety
here’s the bolded outright statement (AGAIN) of how they expected players to be able to somehow get sym into 10m of the enemy and live there for >4s to charge and utilise her primary despite the lack of tools in her kit to do so.
having an ability less capable of adapting to the situation IS OBJECTIVELY more restrictive. having the ability not change in how it’s placed nor it’s interacted with legit does not change what it can be used for. they outright contradicted themselves.
weapon has low effective range (yes including orbs; and I’ve said this to you multiple times, no her turrets aren’t significant enough in her gameplay to make her considered to have longer range in that you don’t dynamically will turrets to immediately be in los and range and shoot enemies like a weapon would to say sym plays further away to be effective)
legit where’s the sustain? at best it’s her wall which is an ult (infrequent) and her shield regen (no tools to actually utilise it)
when her only mobility is on such a high down time to the point that you play like it’s not there most of the time, she has low mobility
her burst is combining primarily combining tp with orbs and tp is on a really high down time so, yeah she lacks access to burst
please explain the unhelpful (and often detrimental) changes she’s gotten then and what her design is (and if you say she’s supposed to be some sort of extremely passive and static hero, please explain how that’s not an inherently poor design in a game environment where everything is heading in a dynamic direction)?
see her hero stats that period, what was meta, and contemplate on why and how that happened. see patch notes to see how they weren’t changed in that period (aside from bugs about them going inside the map).
the quoted value wasn’t even 40%~70% it was like 20~40% and they weren’t even clear on whether it was sym or zarya because they mentioned them together
they blatantly said the cause was primary and they nerfed primary to adjust/compensate. so again, if wall and turrets were fine before for ~2yrs across so many metas, why does that 1 meta, where sym was blatantly propped up, signal the need to nerf them at the base level and why does that 1 meta signal the need to net nerf sym globally rather than redistributing that power elsewhere in her kit?
the point of the rework was to make sym more viable in more areas and to make her more flexible i.e. make her less narrow in niche and make her more dynamic. if that’s not making her more common to play, then please read the definition of niche.
reminder of what’s being argued here:
so what, you’re saying sym doesn’t need to move to get in los or get in effective range at all and just needs to sit on point with her turrets, etc. and wait there until the enemy arrives? again, the notion of “going out to grab and/or create opportunities is more efficient and valuable than waiting for opportunities to come to you” applies irrespective of hero, role, niche, etc.
so game direction and game environment is completely irrelevant to determination of whether a hero design is good or viable. coool. turn based hero when?
torb can move his turret around more and isn’t so reliant on turrets to be able to get opportunities to contribute (his primary is like a projectile version of mccree’s primary).
but that’s beside the point, because combining what you said with the fact that we had tp on a higher cast frequency for over a year basically shows that she’s not meant to be anchored down heavily.
the uncertainty of whether to put sym in a support or damage role despite the fact that they setup OW to have really healbotty supports and despite the fact that they’ve been reworking the hero to switch between the 2 roles, is very telling that they don’t.
The issue is that even if TP was reverted it still doesnt give her the combat mobility that Tracer/Genji have, it counts as a gapcloser but it still doesnt give her the slippery juke mobility of flankers that gives them survivability in combat by being hard to aim. Not to mean of how Genji’s mobility also makes his hurtbox smaller and very hard to aim to.
At this point I think that Sym flat out needs both in some measure, both personal 3.0 TP and survivability at the same time because I simply dont think that one or the other will cut it alone.
I disagree (specifically about the remark on the “lack of juke ability” on tp). It does, but simply not to the extent or dynamic flexibility that tracer blinks or all the passives + cd resets genji has.
apologising in advance for link and vid dumps but there’s various ways to use tp as in combat mobility:
Stevo Full Holds Blizzard World With All Golds - YouTube 1st tp for bomb (attempt) and better angle. had 2nd tp available for escaping the rein but messed up cast hence death (can see the animation for tp being quickly brought up but canceled; he would’ve made it too).
like of course tp isn’t going to be “press and immediately go where you want” like tracer and genji due to needing you to be 2s ahead to make up for deployment time, and there’s interaction radius, but it definitely has various uses and benefits in-combat assuming you have it up in time. hence the only core hurdle to that is the deployment time, which tbh is only a bit too slow (i.e. not really massively slow; the deployment time is mainly what makes her mobility stand out aside from teammates being able to use it and it enforces forethought which fits more with sym’s theme/angle).
that said, I’m not saying that old 3.0 tp solves everything (it solves quite a few significant things, but not all), she may still need a bit more sustain even if she got old 3.0 tp back or more burst (whichever appropriate). tho overall, we’re probably in agreement.
I think the reason why people say she’s terrible is that she has low range, low mobility, and extreme damage.
To be honest though, she absolutely wrecks face in close range. Her beam bypasses D.va’s dm, charges quick, and even charges while sucking energy from shields.
The only thing is that due to her weaknesses you pretty much need support from your team to gain position, however once in position she can mow through a full team in a matter of seconds… For a lot of dps heroes it helps to think of them as guns for your team. Sym might not be able to secure a kill for a retreating enemy or flank… But she outputs LOTS of damage in brawls and when she has team support (as in position, not talking about healing).
Yes, and without shields she has to reload way too much, d.va doesn’t need to dm near symm because she can just shoot her to death, not much symm can do about it.
In the time it takes Sym to right click someone and finish them off with left click, most other heroes can kill her twice in that same time frame. Or if someone receives healing, the first level of her beam (depending on the healer) can end up doing half to negative damage.
Ideally, her turrets also have to be involved, but they’re too unreliable/easily destroyed to be used as a viable attack strategy unless someone is completely unaware or you wall the turrets off with her ult.