✅ [Not 2-2-2] TF2 style Class Limits

Team Fortress 2, is unarguably the spiritual predecessor of Overwatch.
A lot of other games have things like character bans, pick phases and role limits.
However those games almost never involve switching characters mid-game.
(Much less both sides having access to the same characters in a competitive format).
So maybe it would be better to investigate how TF2 deals with the issue.

In TF2, for it’s “Standard Competitive Format” it’s 6v6 with character switching.
However there are limits when you switch between characters, as follows:

2 Scout players or fewer at any given time
2 Soldier players or fewer at any given time
1 or 2 Pyro player(s) or fewer at any given time (varies by league)
1 Demoman player or fewer at any given time
1 or 2 Heavy player(s) or fewer at any given time (varies by league)
1 or 2 Engineer player(s) or fewer at any given time (varies by league)
1 Medic player or fewer at any given time
1 or 2 Sniper player(s) or fewer at any given time (varies by league)
2 Spy player(s) or fewer at any given time

If RoleQueue or 2-2-2 isn’t going to happen for a long time.
Or might be wholly incompatible, due to DPS queue times.
“Dynamic Hero Limits” could be the answer.

In particular, I’d say go ahead and put in these limits for Overwatch:

3 DPS players or fewer at any given time
4 Tank players or fewer at any given time
2 Healer players or fewer at any given time

The reasoning for picking these numbers is that it almost guarantees either 2Tank1Heal, or 1Tank2Heal. Which isn’t perfect, but it’s miles better than 5-6DPS comps, or uncoordinated 4-1-1 comps. And you’d almost always atleast 2 Roles to choose from at any given time.
There are a few exceptions, such as 3DPS-3Tank. But in a deadlock like that, atleast everyone has the opportunity to switch to Healer. So everyone is equally responsible if a lack of a Healer loses the game.
I figure something like this could be implemented very easily, could probably even make a Workshop mode with it in a couple minutes. And if they wanted to put it into OWL/Contenders. Those are already run with custom-game settings.

Unlike 2-2-2, it would allow for a wide variety of Comps. But you would usually end up with

  • 2DPS-2Tank-2Heal
  • 3DPS-1Tank-2Heal
  • 1DPS-3Tank-2Heal
  • 4Tank-2Heal
  • 3-2-1 / 2-3-1 / 3-3-0 (Primarily for low-tier games, or bigbrain cheese comps)

_

Also if people haven’t noticed, those with fast connections/harddrives have to wait for everyone to load before picking their character. So that avoids some of the moral hazard of those with superior hardware getting a guarunteed instalock.

Devs could also make an optional “Role Dibs” Queue, which locks you into a Role in 2-2-2, but only for the first 30 seconds of the game.

Also, if they really really really need to give people something like RoleBasedSR, then just give people 2 extra “Profiles” to switch between, that aren’t necessarily locked to a Role. Practically the same.

The only forseable problem I figure is what happens when you get 3+ AnchorTanks like Orisa/Rein. But they could just arbitrarily limit AnchorTanks at the hero select screen. Since they are already limiting hero selection with role limits.

18 Likes

Also, the way I see it.

  • 4DPS comps are almost insta-throw for most skill tiers in Competitive.
  • And 4-to-6 DPS comps make Quickplay look like Overwatch is less of a teamplay game than Apex Legends solo queue.
  • Quickplay is also where 100% of any new players would come from. Which is vitally important if this game is going to grow, instead of continue in it’s current slump.
  • While 4-1-1 is possibly great in Masters/GM, it might be a worthy tradeoff to both eliminate GOATs, and maintain some composition variety compared to 2-2-2. (And keep Role Switching).
  • Also with maintain Role Switching, you can solve the issue of someone practically throwing on the roles they are on. i.e. No Main Healer, No Main Tank, OMG SOMEBODY KILL THAT PHARAH ALREADY, Moira/Ana/Zen stop DPSing and heal me already.
  • If they really really really need to give people something like RoleBasedSR, then just give people 2 extra “Profiles” to switch between, that aren’t necessarily locked to a Role.

Also one thing which a lot of people haven’t discussed with 2-2-2, is that the top ~5% of the playerbase already has plenty of alternate accounts.
Meanwhile you’re handing the excess of DPS mains, in the other 95% of the playerbase, a bunch of Tank/Healer accounts, making their queue times suck unless they go Tank/Healer, then telling them not to focus on Damage when playing Tank/Healer. And then removing the tool to deal with damage focused Tank/Healers. (I.e. Swapping with them)

3 Likes

…Sorry, Glad you summon me… but I have 1% energy right now… well just consider me undead today. (terrible night, last night)

Try to get Myst to process this if Myst can.

Weird comparison to TF2 when TF2’s class limits are based on individual power.

No worries, had a good discussion over on r/CompetitiveOverwatch, thought I’d bring it back to the forums.

Hah, cool. I didn’t know you could sorta tag people to say, hey, take a gander at this.

Anyways. I think it’s a pretty good model, but I also understand a few big things about it.

TF2 has a far more limited roster, but with a large number of variations to those heroes.

Your solution of it, yeah it gives more wiggle room (especially to keep QP exactly as the title states) I’ll give you that, but I still feel like much more can be done with balancing when it’s just enforced as 2-2-2.

Like it takes a ton of headache out of balancing and running something efficiently.

My major gripe I think about without there being 2-2-2… Is no one wants to play solo anchor tank or main healer. Those players generally just want a buddy to help shoulder the burden of the role (i.e. off tank/healer).

I still think with an expanding roster 2-2-2 is the best route. Especially because putting a cap on healers is kind of a bandaid effect for Brig, but what happens when there is a DPS or Tank that creates an effect similar to Brig?

1 Like

This will not change the things, players want 2 2 2 for.
Like you can still be stuck with 3 dds solo healing/tanking.
Goats will still be a thing
And brig will be useless.

Na, either limit all or non.

5 Likes

I don’t think the issue is how role queue is done, it’s the problems its going to cause QP. I’m not looking forward to nothing but 5 dps comps because they get a 15 minute queue time for comp.

Can’t run GOATs or any of it’s variants with a maximum of 2 Healers per team.

I think nobody would disagree that balancing Healers is more difficult than balancing Tanks/DPS.

The problem with imposing limits as opposed to role queue is that you can force a player into a role they’re not comfortable or good on. The matchmaker may give you a team that is 4 DPS mains and then you need to fight over the first three DPS slots (which are gonna be the three with the fastest SSDs) and then one person is left to do something they can’t actually play effectively at the rank they’re in.

With role queue, you always know up front who you’ll get on a team and you’re never stuck doing something you don’t want.

6 Likes

1 DPS 3 Tanks 2 Supp

I know what this comp is going to be :>

Soldier-…

1 Like

Yah, i flaked up the part wher sombra is thrown in for Dva not a healer, but even then, you coud still 3 tank.

If people haven’t noticed, those with fast connections/harddrives have to wait for everyone to load before picking their character. So that avoids some of the moral hazard of those with superior hardware getting a guaranteed instalock.

Devs could also make an optional “Role Dibs” Queue, which locks you into a Role in 2-2-2, but only for the first 30 seconds of the game.

That’s fine. 3Tank/4Tank comps aren’t a problem, and had been around long since before Brigitte was released.

1 Like

Pretty sure they fixed this in the last patch. My matches load in almost instantly now,

1 Like

Huh, wonder if that was intentional. I was having it where I would load in fast, but get stuck on this screen for about 20 seconds. (Got an SSD and Fiber internet).

I’m actually okay with this set up. Minus 4 tanks 2 supports. A role should never be removed from the game completely. But overall this works as a better alternative to 2-2-2.

1 Like

That happened to me prior to the most recent anniversary patch, but now that screen rarely lasts for more than a few seconds, which is what it used to be for me in the past.

I don’t think 4Tank/2Healer is a balance problem.

It’s not about balance to me there. It’s more I just see a replacement for 3-3. I think requiring one of all three roles is important.

Why is it important, if balance isn’t the reason?

Also if 3-3 is going to be removed, wouldn’t it be good to maintain something similar to 3-3 that isn’t a balance problem?