No Point playing OW until Moira's damage is addressed

General Discussion
121

We haven’t had stats for OW2 so I don’t know what the distribution was but based off of old stats.

The majority of the playerbase was actually Silver to Gold.

I can’t post the link but it’s from a website called esportstales

If you look at these stats.

About 50% of the players is in the Gold tier or below

There is a huge difference between low and high Platinum players

Diamonds are a restricted group, and Masters and Grandmasters represent the elite

So, cope by saying bottom 1% but it’s not true.

Moira is a problem from bronze to gold, neither of us have data to back up how she’s still an issue in gold so there’s no point arguing that.

And even if she was only a problem in bronze to silver which is NOT the case, it’s still not OK.

122

i guess my question is where does the limit get defined in these circumstances? moira is good at low ranks bc her damage is easy to land, so you nerf her damage or ease or range or whatever.

do you apply this same reasoning to reaper, who also does really well at low ranks bc his damage is easy to land? or junkrat?

soldier? symmetra? mei?

does every character need to be adjusted because people at low elos aren’t that great?

with all due respect, low elos exist for a reason. i don’t know how riot does these things, but blizzard balances around the majority of the player base, which is around gold to plat/low diamond maybe. moira is not a problem at those ranks.

i really don’t like the “get good” argument but there are very viable ways to shut down moira rather consistently. you can nerf her attack hit box, but you’d need to buff the damage it deals, or something along those veins.

with that, she becomes harder at lower ranks and more viable at higher ranks.

if your tank can’t stop a moira, if a reaper or tracer or mei can’t stop her, those are genuine skill issues and they can be overcome with learning more about the game and getting better.

123

That’s not true. The majority was gold/platinum according to the game director Jeff Kaplan.

As someone at those ELOs; there is genuinely not. My mid plat DPS games and my low Diamond games are not a day and night different. The only real difference is you make a few less mistakes each match. The 400 ELO difference does not reflect a significant difference in mechanical skill.

It really is only a problem for the bottom of the barrel.

Moira is not a problem in gold. How do I know?

Two things

  1. Moira is not a problem in my girlfriends game and she’s a gold mercy main. Someone that theoretically could be bullied pretty regularly by Moira.
  2. Moira has a low winrate even in the ELOs you’re complaining about.

It’s like the guy complaining about Torbjorn getting insane value up above us. Torbjorn is largely not a problem in any elo where people shoot the turret. The only reason he gets “insane value” at any ELO is because the turret is the only thing on the team that can actually reliably hit anything. Moira is similar. She only gets “insane value” because the people aim so badly that they can’t shoot her 2/3 times in the four seconds it takes for her tickle gun to kill them.

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124

That’s not true. The majority was gold/platinum according to the game director Jeff Kaplan.

Literally google it, I’m not going to argue with something you can just Google but you’re wrong.

As someone at those ELOs; there is genuinely not

Stats > personal anecdotes. Stats say you’re wrong.

It really is only a problem for the bottom of the barrel.

You can keep saying that and I can keep saying it’s a problem for the majority, how long you want to continue this dance?

Even if you only take Bronze and Silver into account it’s still not the bottom 1% and it’s still A LOT of players.

125

This is not a debate. You are objectively wrong. Nothing else you wrote is even worth reading if youre going to ignore the games director in favor of a random statistic from a nobody site lol

Why dont you actually compare the stats between plats and diamonds? While were on the stat argument Moira has one of lowest winrates of any support even in Bronze. I guess that isnt convenient for you though.

And you keep ignoring the game director and what he says the average is because its inconvenient for you. Its not the majority. The combination of Bronze and Silver literally doesnt even overtake the amount the players in Gold alone. Bronze + Silver are neither the majority or the average.

126

LMAO your data is not only out of date it’s from a different GAME bro.

I Googled it and you’re wrong, not interested in repeating myself so if you’re not going to google it then there’s no point to continue talking about this.

Why dont you actually compare the stats between plats and diamonds?

You’re talking about stats but you’re the only one that isn’t Googling them lmao.

I guess that isnt convenient for you though.

Overbuff doesn’t have current stats available so can’t comment on it, I’m sure your source as always is “trust me bro” but anyway, even if that’s true which I’m not sure it is, it’s not strictly about winrate, winrate doesn’t dictate whether a champion is a problem in low elo or good for the game, that’s never, ever been the case.

Case in point nobody talks about winrates when it comes to Widow and Hog one shotting people or Hanzo’s old scatter arrows, it’s a very limited window to judge a large issue that is only applicable to very few aspects of the discussion.

But like I said, we have to wait till the stats come out.

And you keep ignoring the game director and what he says the average is because its inconvenient for you.

My guy he’s not even the game director anymore LOL and it’s about a DIFFERENT GAME.

Is your brain stuck in 2018? do you even know that I’m talking about OW2?

127

“Youre data is from an older version of the same game that we have no significant reason to believe the bell curve in ranks has changed”

“I googled it and Im just going to go with the first made up statistic that I like”

Overbuff was updated. Your info is literal months out of date.

128

“Youre data is from an older version of the same game that we have no significant reason to believe the bell curve in ranks has changed”

“I googled it and Im just going to go with the first made up statistic that I like”

Ok bro, clearly you’re either trolling or well… either way no reason to continue talking to you. See ya.

129

i want to make this VERY clear. low elo is bronze, silver, gold, plat and diamond thats 96% of all players so there is no middle to balance for.

but the difference between the two (balancing for low elo vs high elo)

is that the problems of low elo can be solved by getting better, but the problems of high elo can only be solved through a balance patch.

low elo players think that if you balance for high elo they get left out, but thats not how it works.

if you change the problem things at the top, it trickles down to the rest of the ranks.

then if you have a hero, for instance reaper when they giga buffed his self-heal, that is truely problematic, they can nerf the aspect of his kit that makes them broken on low elo without effecting them in any other rank.

and before you say “the average player is X”, people in plat have like 15-20% of the total skill potential (this includes everything you can learn or improve in), the halfway mark would be around 4000sr. this is why a diamond can smurf in plat, a masters can smurf in diamond and a GM can smurf in masters but a plat cant smurf in gold and can only smurf in bronze/silver. and thats why everything under masters is “low elo”, if we did have a mid elo it would be diamond which is only 10% of players.

so yes the average player is like silver/gold but that doesnt mean they are past the 50% mark, they still have ALOT of room for improvement and thats why even diamond is called low elo. its just a fact of life that the average player in a competitive game is WELL below the 50% mark, 20% is a respectable number for the average player particularly when you realize that someone in like 1500sr (the end of bronze) would have like 5% meaning a plat is 4x the player a bronze is.

(the numbers are estimates, but the theory they are based on its fairly old. ive talked about it before so im not going to repeat it here again.)

130

Thats not how this works.

The statistical middle and average is Gold/Plat. People dont just get to dictate theres no middle because you dislike the idea of balancing in favor of the average player. What % of the games skill cap they’re at is irrelevant when it comes to the average elo

131

I hope you understand that “low” is a very subjective word, but your usage renders it meaningless. Maybe the word you’re looking for is “average”.

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133

look. its low elo or high elo there is no middle.

if you are under masters you are low elo thats just how it works because the skill of the metal rank players is so low that its insignificant compared to high elo.

the difference between a silver and a gold is TINY. so they are bundled up together as 1 thing “the metal ranks”. the only thing that could be called middle is diamond but we still largely call that low elo.

but you fundamentally cannot balance for people that low in rank. you cant balance around people that are making 100 mistakes a second. it just doesnt work.

saying “oh well these ppl are the average” who cares?

statistical average doesnt matter here. because they are still low elo. the average player is bad thats a fact. and you cant balance around incompetence.

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134

If 50% of players are Gold/Plat thats the average elo regardless of the skill difference between Plat and the top 1%. You’re not talking about ELO. You’re talking about the skill ceiling.

135

lol no its called low elo because everyone in that range is roughly the same skill level

if you take a gold player and put em in bronze they can smurf but if you take that same gold and put em in silver they’ll struggle to climb back up.

that same rule is true for all the people in the “metal ranks”, but if you take someone thats master’s they smurf in diamond. the reason for that is theres a larger skill jump between diamond into masters then from bronze into plat.

thats why we call them low elo. because to us its all the same. if you put me in a match randomly against a team thats full of people that are in the metal rank (bronze to plat). im not going to be able to tell difference. because you all make the same exact mistakes even up until 2900sr

statistical average means nothing when the average player is barely better then the worst player.

keep in mind, that as masters player im bad compared to someone in top 500. so if i can absolutely obliterate someone in plat, but top 500s can do that to me.

think about how insignificant a plat is.

you cannot balance for someones incompetence. you balance for the people who are actually good at the game and then that trickles down to everyone else.

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136

That’s nonsense. You’re saying the vast majority of the people who play this game are “insignificant.” I don’t even know how to talk to someone with that kind of attitude.

2 Likes
137

You should balance so the game is actually fun for most people playing. Ignoring the average player is how you get a dead game. Imagine the :poop:show if they buffed Bastion to be more viable in t500.

138

in terms of skill they are.

thats just a sad fact that most are too nice to say.

if i can obliterate a plat but a top 500 can obliterate me, what does that say about the skill level of the “average player”.

if a plat needs to be 1000sr above a rank to smurf, but a high elo player only has to be 500 or less to smurf what does that say about the skill level of the “average player”.

you cannot balance for people that cant even do the easy aspects of the game like positioning.

because when you do, you get posts like this where someone complains about moiras dmg, even though its 50dps and most dps heroes can kill her in half the time it would take her to kill them.

low elo player’s matter as a whole, just not in terms of overall balance.

you balance for the top, but you still make sure there is nothing too outrageous going on in low elo. but you always start from the top.

the main reason why everyone hates the balance is because they ARE balancing for low elo.

low rank players say “no they are balancing for high elo!!!” but if they were, then sojourns rail wouldnt be able to headshot, mercy’s dmg boost would of been removed 2 year’s ago and goats never would of existed. balancing for low elo is what started the death of overwatch 1, and most of us would prefer if they didnt do the same thing in ow2.

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139

Who is more likely to get those headshots?

140

Just want to call out the hypocrisy of the OP calling for Moira nerfs, arguing about them because he hates her ruining his silver games, and then liking this. Very consistent OP

So which is it MonkeyKing? Do you want Moira balanced for you because you cant shoot her 3 times in 4 seconds or do you want it balanced for top 500s?

141

in the future, to not embarrass yourself, I’d suggest not calling 50 dps with no crit “too high damage”