It's Lucio, not Brigitte

Competitive Discussion
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Firstly, I am well aware that I will most likely be receiving a variety of criticisms for making this post, however, I would appreciate if you could take the time to read what I have to say.

Brigitte’s Release vs Where She is Now

On the day of her release, and the many following months, she was a monster and the strongest pick for any team. Statistically, she had the highest pick rate and win rate and became must-pick. Since the day of her release, she has received a multitude of nerfs. As a gentle reminder, here they are:

  1. Shield Bash cone angled reduced from 90 to 60;
  2. Shield Bash cooldown increased from 5s to 6s;
  3. Rally max armor reduced from 150 to 100;
  4. Shield Bash cooldown increased from 6s to 7s;
  5. Shield Bash trades knockdowns (ie, Rein and ​Doomfist);
  6. Shield health reduced from 600 to 500;
  7. Shield Bash can’t go through barriers;
  8. Shield Bash damage reduced from 50 to 5;
  9. Rally armor expires after 30 seconds
  10. Inspire:
    Cooldown decreased to 1.0s (from 1.5s);
    Duration increased to 6s (from 5s)
    Total healing increased to 100 (from 80)
  11. Armor is nor prioritized over shields (this is debatable as a nerf or buff)
  • Due to her rally decaying after 30 seconds now, her teammates will be protected by the armor first. Thus, actually giving the ultimate more utility for heroes like Zarya and Zenyatta.
  • On the other hand, this prevents those heroes like Zen and Zarya from fleeing the fight and waiting for their shields to regenerate so the enemy team can’t damage their armor.

I strongly believe that her nerfs were warranted, in my own, honest opinion. She can’t harass the enemy team’s backline anymore and she struggles 1v1’ing. She’s finally fit for what category she was placed in, a Support - granted, she is considered an off-healer.

Lucio is now the Heart and Soul of GOATS

With Lucio and Brigitte having AOE healing, there is no reason to have a main healer anymore. In fact, in a majority of games, Lucio probably does the most healing out of the other supports on a team.

  • Edit 1: I’ve had a lot of responses commenting on the above paragraph. I should have stated that Lucio sometimes outputs more heals than other supports in a match. It’s case to case. Here are some stats on his average healing compared to other supports in competitive matches across different platforms:

  • ttps://www.overbuff.com/roles/support?mode=competitive

^^^ My apologies for the inconvenience. It’s denying me the right to paste an outside source here. If you wish to follow the link, add an “h” at the beginning to complete the link when you paste it into the web address bar.

However, healing isn’t the problem…

It’s his speed boost passive/cooldown ability

The reason why GOATS works so well now, even AFTER Brigitte’s nerfs, is because of Lucio’s speed boost ability. He is literally the center piece of the composition - and I mean that literally… not figuratively. In professional and higher tier play, the tanks, DPS and other supports follow him, and that is where the problem lies.

With a Reinhardt, Zarya, Zenyatta with zero movement ability, Lucio changes that. He can get an ENTIRE team from point A to B in such a short amount of time. This is also why Symmetra is so great on first point hybrid and CP maps; teleport behind the team straight to the point as fast as you can. But at least with her ability, it can be countered and it’s not all that reliable. Plus, that is the only aspect of her kit that is useful to the team. Her DPS is awful, but that’s another topic for some other day.

Lucio’s kit does everything right for GOATS comp to be effective.

Movement ability for an entire team? - check
Healing aura that has a decent range (was increased from 10m to 12m)? - check
Sustainability? - check (beats Moira out of the water)
CC? - check (has a boop)

His kit just works so well, however, it’s his speed boost that is the crux of the problem. And, people are in denial about Lucio being the real problem here with GOATS. Lucio has one of the highest win rates AND pick rates in the game. The next hero is Reinhardt and Zarya, but that’s only because they synergize so incredibly well.

Nerf Lucio?

Uhhh, hell no. That wasn’t the point of this post. Now, if you have intriguing ideas on how to change his speed ability, then I’d be interested. But, I don’t see how to exactly nerf this ability, considering the fact that this is literally what makes Lucio, Lucio.

I Believe We Need a GOATS Hero Counter

Remember when Daddy Jeff said that the next hero was going to change the meta (Dive comp) and that’s actually what happened (Brigitte). We need the same for GOATS, and that change (as hard as it is to say) has to target Lucio, more specifically his crossfade/speed boost.

Imagine a hero that has an ability (or ultimate) that creates some sludge to slow down a small area of the map. That, in my opinion, would be a means to an end with GOATS comp and be the ultimate counter.

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  • Hero Ability/Ideas/Concepts from User Responses
  1. An aura ability from a tank or a support that debuffs movement speed and/or:
  1. A weapon that works similar to Torb’s Molten Core by dispensing some sludge onto the field.
  • Proposed Changes to Lucio’s Speed Ability:
  1. Have Lucio’s Amp-It-Up ability decay in speed over time for his team but not him
  2. Remove the Amp-It-Up ability and buff his speed component - may have to increase healing.

==============================================================================

Credibility
I received a lot of inspiration from a recent video on Overwatch Central:

Ryan hosted a coach from the Boston Uprising Academy, so if you can’t take my word, listen his.

Also, I just want to mention, I have played this game for 3 years now since vanilla and am a masters tier player. I’m not saying this to boast or undermine anyone’s arguments. People have a tendency to be quick to judge and make irrational accusations. Regardless of how long you have played or what tier you are in, if you can make a justified argument and defend it, that’s what matters.

Thank you for reading this post, I sincerely appreciate it.

  • WhackingPizza

TL;DR:
Read the dang post :wink:

…

Excuse me of any grammatical errors. I’ll edit them out as I catch them.

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You say they were unwarranted, but then go on to say she finally fits the category she was placed in.

So, that leads me to believe the nerfs were warranted.

Sombra? Moira?

I’m glad you don’t want him nerfed, because that’s what I’m worried about.

However, if we were to nerf him, what do you think about capping how many people can receive the benefits of his speed boost?

I’m not for this change, but it just came to mind

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100% factual. Mobility is king, Lucio is the Lynchpin of GOATs .

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I believe you misread what I said in that quote box. You’re right though regardless, Brigitte’s nerfs were warranted.

As I was writing my original post, I did think about Sombra and her hacking toolkit/abilities. But, in my own opinion and experience, she is such a niche hero. In professional play, as I have personally seen, she’s used as a scout and only hacks other valuable targets, including Lucio. Though now that you mention, I should pay closer attention to how often Lucio’s get hacked in higher tier play. Maybe a reason why she is not so strong as of a counter to Lucio is due to her hardly being a “team character/player”. She runs off, does her own things, and harasses the enemy backline, ultimately leaving it to a 5v6 for her team. But, to answer your question, I did think about Sombra, I just wasn’t positive on her being a hard counter.

And oh yes, I am against any Lucio nerf unless I find it within reason.

Nonetheless, that is a very interesting change. Though, unless you disagree, I honestly wouldn’t think that would change much. In OWL as of right now, GOATS is run as Rein, Dva, Brig, Zarya, Zen, Lucio. Only three of those heroes are immobile and if Lucio’s aura is capped at 3, for instance, well then nothing is truly changed.

But that is an interesting idea that I never considered. I wonder if any MOBA games do that - fill me in if they do.

Let me know what you think though! :smiley:

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A while ago in an unrelated thread I suggested such a hero. I imagined the weapon would work like Torb’s Molten Core in terms of dispensing the goop. That’s maybe a bit OP as you could just slow down an entire team whenever you felt like it. So now I’m thinking something a bit different but also less reliable / more of a skill shot. It’d have to at least be on a CD or maybe even an ultimate like you suggested. Imagine shooting a big blob of goop which traveled like Zarya’s alternate fire but burst and covered a 3 metre radius on impact. If you got it right you could splash the walls and even stop Lucio escaping, too.

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nope, that’s zen. He has no trouble hitting the big bodies of tanks and trans is the go to defense ult. Sound barrier is used as much for initiating as it is to block anything.

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You’re right. That’s my bad. Sorry about that.

Na you’re probably right on that one.
Unless, of course, you limited it to one other person, but that may be too much.

What if his amped speed boost still affected him normally, but it didn’t last as long for the other players? Or, perhaps the speedboost only affects other players when it is amped.

For me, personally, I want Lucio to feel the same from his perspective, so if things change I want them to be how others interact with his auras.

Again, I’m not for any of these changes, I’m just spitballing to see what you think as I don’t usually talk to someone as high of rank as you are (I’m only mid platinum for reference)

Sona in League of Legends has Auras like Lucio, but they only work for a little while after activating I think, so that’s an interesting idea.

They used to be permanent though :confused:

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Oh lol you’re good no worries x)

I so strongly agree with having Lucio feel the same from his perspective. I believe a year or two ago they changed something with his wallride (not the backwards wallride), but the speed of it when he jumps off from it. I think they reduced it. People kinda just got over it. But, definitely any change to him, specifically. would be too drastic of a change.

What if his amp ability does the same thing as it does now, but instead of all allied teammates staying at his speed, it decays/slows down over time. In other words, anyone in his aura during amp is granted the speed boost but it decays slowly over time while Lucio can stay at that constant speed.

^^^ It actually sounds a lot similar to the character from League now that you mentioned it lol - well from my very understanding

Another interesting idea, yet controversial, to “punish” GOATS:

Any hero that is not inside of Lucio’s aura at the same time he uses amp-it-up, cannot receive the buff if he were to go back and pick up a teammate.

Teams would thus have to be more careful when maneuvering across the map together.

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It is… similar to her, but I can’t really say since it’s been years since I played league.

I think this idea is interesting for sure and would like to try it out

This would be reasonable I think, but wouldn’t affect GOATS too much since they are all grouped up anyways, right?

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I agree that something needs to be done about Lucio. Be it a nerf or a counter or whatever, I don’t care, but something needs to be done at this point. As you said, in this game, mobility is king (which is why Dive was so strong for so long), and having a hero that can make even the most immobile and range-limited heroes too fast to kill before they’re on you is really, really strong.

Zen’s ult might be better to save his team in a single moment, but there’s still so much downtime between them that Lucio more than pulls ahead with his constant auras.

Remember, we’re in a meta where Shatters and Grav’s win fights, and Zen needs to almost exclusively save trans for that. So how quickly he can build his ult is ultimately irrelevant to how often he can use it. What it’s mostly dependent on is how quickly the enemy gains their ults for him to actually put his own to consistent use, and while he’s waiting for that, he’s getting his basic heals constantly outdone by Lucio, who can also use Sound Barrier in a pinch to take some pressure off Zen.

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Instead of nerfing and/or changing any hero they just add a debuff in game if you have more then 2 of any type of hero… yes it may be forcing 2/2/2 but that seems to be more fun to play as it seems to require more team work and such…but imagine the debuff idea. If u have 3 healers on ur team then healing will be debuffed so it drops healing lets say by 20% to throw out a number…same with 3 dps ur damage drops …and tanks become more squishy of more then 2…just an idea that would work and not nerf one hero or others. This would require more strategic planing and team work. Just my 2 cents :slight_smile:

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Very intriguing and promising idea, but the focus is not on the healing; it’s on mobility, and Lucio is the only hero who grants his entire team a speed buff. While a 2-2-2 comp would be very ideal for Blizzard, I don’t think they want to restrict people to play a certain way. However, by doing that, they have inevitable metas, such as beyblade, 3 tank, dive, GOATS, etc.

I think it would be an intriguing idea. But, before I were to try it out, I would want to try hero bans first in all honesty.

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Doesn’t take make said hero the must pick then? Either you pick the ultimate counter GOATS or you’ll be stomped by the strongest comp in the history of Overwatch. It’s Brigitte all over again.

I can’t offer a good alternative though. Right now the first thing that comes to mind is nerfing Lucio’s Amp It Up, keep the “passive” speed component.

Symmetra’s turrets slow down heroes, I can’t see them making those useful against a deathball without breaking the game.

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It would be a must-pick, but I hope that they would fine-tune it to where its a counter Lucio (whom is the center of GOATS). Similar to how hit-scans are hard counters for Pharah. The only solution to resolving GOATS without nerfing Lucio, it by adding a hero that counters him.

I’d be all for a nerf to Lucio’s amp it up but as I discussed with another person here, it should affect his teammates rather than him if there were such a nerf.

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Not sure why this is listed as a nerf, should probably put the rally decay and the fact that armour now goes on top of shields instead.

This is untrue, especially in GOATs. Typically with Lucio you run an ana or moira who will outheal you 90% of the time. In GOATs, it’s normally the brig or the zen that gets gold healing. (Brig because repair pack + inspire is what makes up the majority of her healing seeing as Lucio will use amp for the speed and not the heals, and zen because his ult heals a ton).

This is true and I won’t try to deny it. Lucio is a hero that enables tank heavy comps and heroes like Zarya by giving them the mobility that they lack. Unfortunately, there’s isn’t really any adequate change that can be made without drastically altering him as a character (unless you do something somewhat small like a number tweak on speed boost)

The movement is correct, the extra range on his aura doesn’t matter that much. Not sure what you mean by sustainability, but if you mean he’s harder to kill then you’re correct in 80% of the scenarios if it’s a competent lucio player. His boop is helpful but overall not really a part of the reason he’s played.

Thank you for being a rational human being with an opinion that isn’t completely stupid.

In theory, yes, but when the ability is active the team could probably just lay low, retreat and hide behind cover until it ends, then engage. It’s a nice idea though

Me like ioStux. ioStux is gud. Me am in ioStux discord. ioStux is love, ioStux is life.

This might actually be the first post that I’ve seen that has a good structure and presents the problems in a rational way with valid opinions and suggestions that don’t totally destroy heroes or attack those who play/don’t like them.

This was actually quite fun to reply to if I’m honest.

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you may think so, but that’s not how it goes according to the stat listings on the OWL matches in command center

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But then we get into that scenario, the counter will have to be fine tuned to also be very consistent against GOATS, otherwise it won’t counter it at all, players will go for the most consistent strategy, usually.

Ashe on paper is very good counter to GOATS. AoE damage dangerous to deathball, ranged attack and vertical mobility, Bob can do displacement and use up defensive resources. In practice, she doesn’t do enough, dynamite just gets ignored by AoE heal and Ashe isn’t consistent enough to kill squishes with headshots amidst the GOATS blob. She wasn’t even ran with London’s 4 DPS. Seoul tried 4 DPS with Ashe on Illios and got destroyed by LA’s goats 2-0.

Fine tuning is hard, that fine tuning is even harder in this case I think and I have no faith that Blizzard can hit it, I would prefer if they didn’t try, after busted Mercy rework, Brigitte’s release state and the failed attempts to balance those two, I’m scared to what the results of a GOATS counter hero might implode the game.

It also must be said that most of these heroes take months to create. If Blizz was to create a hero to counter GOATS, odds are the meta would shift by the time it were ready, however slightly it would mess up, potentially, said fine tuning. GOATS for instance shifted quite a lot. Moira became Ana that became Zen, Doomfist/Sombra rose as counter, now it’s chupacabra and Winston GOATS.

My head hurts just thinking of navigating that maze of balance issues.

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  1. A skill shot nano pathogen that slows an enemy and prevents them from receiving any speed boost as well as slowing them down (only on one target)

or

  1. A skill shot nano pathogen that infects an enemy with a movement speed debuff and then begins to multiply and spread to nearby enemies (chain link animation), forcing groups to scatter from the first infected player to avoid the debuff.
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Right? The inspire “nerf” was honestly neither a buff or a nerf in my opinion. It was a pointless change in my eyes. But maybe I’m missing something. And oh yeah, can you remind me what the nerf was to her Rally Armor? Was it more than just the 30 second expire time for it?

I’ve had others post the same thing. I guess in my own experience when I play support, I tend to get silver healing x) Support isn’t my best role. I think Lucio does output a lot healing though regardless. He is in close competition with other supports on the team. I wish OWL would release stats at the end of matches on their websites. They only publish stats of each individual players.

Right. I think if they were to nerf Lucio, it would have to be a nerf on the buffs he gives to his teammates. To clarify, here is an example I suggested this to someone else:

I included it just to show that it allows his healing aura to extend a little further to help his teammates - extremely useful on KOTH and CP maps.

In MOBAs, heroes with great sustain can stay out in their lanes longer and can survive team fights without having to return to base. Zinx from Paragon is good example if you played that MOBA. And even despite that proposed 80%, that is still incredibly high. While his boop isn’t an integral piece of GOATS, it’s just a cherry on top that makes him even more suitable for cliff maps and other scenarios.

Hahaha!

Evidently, there would have to be better iterations in regard to its cooldown, AOE, velocity of projectile, etc.

I’m guessing I’m missing the meme?

Lol thank you! I think too many people on the forums can be too unreasonable with nerfs, buffs, changes, reworks, or any idea of the matter. I wanted to be clear, concise and state something that some people are in denial about. Too many people (even professional players) still blame Brigitte for GOATS in its current state. I find it flawed as Brigitte has suffered so many nerfs and is at the bottom of the bucket. And even despite all that, GOATS still thrives… and it’s because of everyone’s beloved character :confused: sucks to say, but Lucio is the culprit and is how GOATS is going to cease to exist.

I’m glad, and I respect and appreciate your response. Valid and justified points.

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Yup, been saying it for a while. Lucio needs to be gutted (reworked). He’s so OP, in-context, it’s absurd it’s lasted this long.

Zarya and Rein need their ultimates tuned. Game may become decent again.

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