the statement I identified as attempted console shaming was and is attempted console shaming
playing both does not mean that it is impossible for one to attempt console shaming.
it does not absolve one from making such statements
I’ve already addressed what was a request and is now phrased as a demand
I will not be addressing this subtopic further in this thread
If the only food you have is rotten, it is still inedible
if the only car you own has no engine, it remains undriveable
if the only water you have is poisoned, it remains undrinkable
bad or nonapplicable data doesnt become good or applicable data merely because it is the only data one has.
As one example of many, open queue competitive now exists in the main selection menu whereas it was in the arcade on the day that data was taken
I see that as a very significant change, personally
In any case, a single day worth or data on an ongoing event is not generally considered significant, nor a reasonable measure of the events’ overall activity
since it was the first day it was even available, many werent even aware it existed
if one is unaware of the very existence of a game, how would one even make the choice to go to said game?
not at all
many players dont go in the arcade at all.
if it isnt on the main game selection screen, it isnt under consideration
Both versions are in the game so this discussion is pointless. Play whatever version you prefer, there is no need to remove one or the other.
the discussion topic is “is role queue still necessary” which is a legitimate topic for discussion
on a discussion forum
where folks discuss things
There are a lot of good reasons 222 should be removed from the game, starting with the many severe problems 222 has added to the game and the amount of time/effort/money expended to try to bandaid all those problems
but that’d be a discussion best held in a thread all its own
Sure you are free to discuss whatever you want but asking if role que is necessary sort of implies that they want it gone and that is completely unnecessary.
This is a matter of perspective, you see RQ as having introduced issues while others see it as having fixed issues, just as some believe open que is problematic. But I repeat, in the end the dicussion is pointless because both modes are in the game right now, wanting to have one removed is just downright despicable.
given that argument, it should be pointed out that NONE of the discussion on these forums is necessary, including but not limited to your own responses here
the necessity of discussion isn’t really in question tho, because if it was no one would ever post. Rather, what we see is thousands upon thousands of forum members posting, because “necessity” isnt in question
some of us watch football games not because they are necessary, but because we enjoy watching football games
some of us parachute from a plane, not because it is necessary, but because it is enjoyable. at least, as long as the parachute works.
some of us play a videogame called Overwatch, not because it is necessary, but because it is enjoyable
some of us participate on these forums not because it is necessary, but because we enjoy doing so
so “necessity” isnt - and never has been, nor ever will be - a factor on these forums, on any topic
the many severe problems as well as the time and cost to bandaid them are not a matter of perspective – additional cost is bad for Blizzards bottom line and ergo the survival of the game, and added dev time to bandaid issues means fewer enhancements are added to the game, or are added more slowly, which is not good for the players
all these bandaids we are seeing like fast pass clearly and absolutely show that Blizzard is well aware of at least some of the many severe problems that 222 has inflicted upon the game
you dont see any such bandaids being applied to role-less queue
Nothing despicable about it whatsoever
see further above for response to “pointless”
Everything you just said is wrong. This particular issue is unnecessary because everyone already got what they wanted, those who want to play RQ can do so and those who want to play OQ can do so. As I said, wanting to remove one of them is despicable, it would be trying to ruin someone elses enjoyment for no reason at all. For example, I believe OQ to be a horrendous way to play the game, but some people like it and I have nothing against that, I’m not going to actively ask for Blizzard to remove that mode because there is no need, and I’m not a despicable person, let everyone play whatever they want to play.
It is a matter of perspective. I for example believe that everything you just said is false and or wrong.
Wrong. They wouldn’t have made these decisions if they couldn’t make them possible, otherwise they would’ve never implemented OQ since is the least popular choice by far, but since they CAN, they did so, in order to give the few people who enjoy it a chance to play it.
RQ is the better way to play the game which is widely accepted by now, so in any case, you should be campaigning to remove OQ to free up resources.
You are mistaking “bandaids” with refinement, they are improving upon the system.
Because it fundamentally doesn’t work, which has already been established, there is no need to continue to work on a system that already failed.
If you want to take away people’s enjoyment for no valid reason then yes, it is despicable.
not at all
The point I responded to was one where the necessity of the thread was questioned, when the necessity of any thread is never at issue
Not at all
while those of us who enjoy the absence of restrictions, variety, faster queue times, and overall absence of the many severe problems 222 has brought to the game, the role-less queue game modes remain unequal (in the case of both competitive and qp) or even non existent (in the case of qp, as there is no qp on the main game selection screen
so no, the role-less queue side has not “got what they wanted”
except - that cost and time expenditure is real, regardless of belief. Development of software, as well as changes to existing software) takes time and money. The earth is for example still (roughly) a sphere regardless of whether one chooses to believe otherwise
see previous response
yes, they showed they can make such changes. and they did.
…but…
if they hadn’t made the initial bad decision of adding 222 to the game for all of us, tho it was only necessary for OWL, they wouldnt have had to make the decision to spend money and time (time that could otherwise have gone towards making enhancements to the game like adding more characters) on bandaiding (example: fast passes) some of the severe problems 222 inflicted upon the game
tho this is stated as a fact, it is an opinion…an opinion many forum members, myself included, disagree with
I know of no valid data to support this claim.
I know of absolutely no reason why I would do such a thing when I vastly prefer the role-less queue mode
It’s not considered “refinement” when one makes a change to an application purely to attempt to fix or ameliorate a problem added by a previous change
if that were the case, there would be fixes being installed.
There havent been any fixes installed specifically for role-less queue
Further, thousands upon thousands of players are playing role-less mode matches all over the world as I type this and as you read it. this wouldnt be the case if it were true that “it fundamentally doesn’t work”
all those players playing without issue - it appears to me it works just fine
I know of no valid data to support this claim
not at all
the opposite, actually
a software developer who releases flawed software has an obligation to fix/patch said software
the absence of such patches/fixes for open queue indicate it is not failed
Still missing the point, there is no need to remove RQ, therefore discussing if it’s still necessary is pointless.
This is just blatant lies. The OQ modes are there for anyone to play them and they are just as they were before.
You fail to consider the fact that Blizzard chose to add the OQ mode because they can, therefore it is not a cost that they cannot afford. In any case as I mentioned before, if any mode would have to go it would be OQ as it is the least popular by far.
It was the best decision they’ve made since the game released. It’s what saved this game.
No, it is a fact. You can be in denial all you want, it will still be a fact.
Because you argue against unnecessary “cost” to development, and since OQ is the one mode dragging those costs then it is the one that needs to be removed.
There is no problem to speak of.
You can’t fix what didn’t work in the first place. It would be a waste of time and resources to try and make work something that can’t work. This is the reason they implemented RQ because that is a system that actually works for the game.
I’ll quote you just for fun: “I know of no valid data to support this claim”
THe only obligation the developers have is to have a system that works, if one doesn’t work then it is replaced for one that does, hence RQ.
not at all
the statement I replied indicated that this topic shouldnt be discussed because it was unnecessary, and yet thats true for every single post in these forums…ie we dont post because it is necessary, we choose to do so without it being necessary in every single case
I dont know how much money and time Blizzard is sinking into bandaiding 222, but depending on the cost, it could possibly be very worthwhile - perhaps even necessary - to remove 222. We know with certainty they are pouring resources (ergo dollars) into it to try to overcome some of the many severe problems 222 added to the game. At some point the decision might be “enough is enough”
but Blizzard could certainly decide at some point that there is a need to remove 222
as stated before, and I won’t belabor this further, all discussion on these forums can be considered to be pointless given the mindset described
and yet…we discuss
on a discussion forum
meant for discussion
etc etc
not at all
the modes are unequal, especially in qp
not at all
one example of many: before 222, role-less queue qp was on the main game selection menu. It is now in the arcade menu. This is an obvious difference, ie not “just as they were before”. One can claim if they like that this is not a big difference, but it remains a difference when the claim in the statement quoted above is that the modes are “just as they were before”.
they’re simply not.
I know of no valid data to support the claim regarding the popularity of role-less queue modes
IMO, adding 222 was THE very worst change ever made to the game, and it is killing the game slowly but surely.
Not at all
there is no denial on my part
the statement I noted as an opinion stated as if it were a fact is as I said an opinion
further – for me and for others who have stated this on many queuing threads throughout these forums, role-less queue is a far better game mode than 222
except – role-less queue isnt creating any additional costs
222 on the other hand is drawing resources away form game enhancements due to all the necessary bandaiding work
actually, yes, it is a problem when a dev team has to delay plans to work on product enhancement to deal with bugs and problems that a previous change has caused for the software.
this is true of any software product, not just OW
it has always worked, and is working right now, as demonstrated by the thousands upon thousands of player playing role-less queue mode matches without issue as I type this and as you read this
thats not the case at all with role-less queue as it now stands.
the devs arent having to put work into it to fix is because it isn’t broken
unlike 222, with all its queuing and other problems
except it doesnt, as acknowledged by all the time and effort Blizzard has put into trying to fix it and/or replace it
222 doesn’t work well
Blizzard is putting time/effort/money into fixing and/or replacing it
They are to their credit trying to meet their obligation to their customers
No it isn’t. There is no need to remove any mode, therefore this topic is unnecessary. I repeat, trying to remove any mode whatsoever would be despicable.
Since they are not band aiding anything then your argument becomes invalid.
You want to take away someone’s enjoyment of the game for no reason, that is your argument. And the worst part is that it is completely unnecessary, so yes, it is in fact pointless.
False, it is the exact same thing.
That is irrelevant, the mode is the exact same.
I know of it and it is factual.
You are free to believe that, but there is no need to remove it when OQ is right there for you to play.
Yes it is, because it is an extra mode that is unnecessary for the game as RQ is the main mode now.
They are not delaying anything, that is just speculation on your part.
It never worked which is why they implemented RQ.
Because it never worked in the first place.
They aren’t fixing anything, they are refining the system, making it better, which is something that can’t be done with OQ as it never really worked.
I see no use in continuing what might seem to some like a conversation
I have presented obvious truths, like classic qp being in a different game selection menu than 222 qp, and the response is that the truth presented is a lie, when it clearly isnt
as such, I won’t be responding further
You presented only falsehoods.
are you kidding? No one plays open queue because it is significantly worse than role queue. The release of Open Q actually proved role queue is 100x better due to simple demand
not at all
I play role-less queue
Hulk plays role-less queue
Many other folks have stated on these forums that they play role-less queue
I played some role-less queue games earlier today and it seems there were players on my team and on the red team playing role-less queue as well.
Queuing was also rapid, indicating a lot of folks were ready to play role-less queue mode
this statement, tho stated as a fact, is an opinion…one that I and many others who have stated their opinion of the two queuing methods disagrees with
I know of no valid data that supports the claim of a 100x greater demand for 222 vs role-less queue mode
Until you can provide anything that isn’t 100% speculation i see no reason to believe that the usage has changed significantly.
Do you think that the DEVs only checked once? They have to keep checking what people enjoy and don’t enjoy on a regular basis. If OQ really was the most played version of comp across all regions they would make changes but they haven’t.
If anything OQ comp being on the main comp card should be telling that it is infact not the most played, because again. If it was, the DEVs would have done something about it.[quote=“Megadodo-11847, post:428, topic:586085”]
since it was the first day it was even available, many werent even aware it existed
[/quote]
You keep using the word “many”, do you have an estimate of what percentage of the playerbase that might be? It’s obviously going to be a guess but I’d be interested in knowing what exactly you think it is.
I haven’t gone back to check, but I’m fairly sure that it was said in both the DEV update and in the patch notes.
There are going to be people who check neither of course.
This again.
You realize that not even QP or Comp is on the main screen right? You have to click play or whatever first to even get to those cards where they all are.
That being said, there is an incentive to play arcade because of the weekly free lootboxes, I’d bet that “many” would play that at least for those.
I really don’t know why they don’t do the same thing with qp tbh… My only guess is because most people prefer playing qp for casualty so they don’t really care or would prefer to go open queue.
But I still think that at least esthetically they should have open queue and role queue for qp as well…
it is upon the person making a claim to support their claim
I made no claims about usage or popularity in any of my statements
the only such claims were in the statements of others
I personally prefer to base conclusions on valid data, but to each their own
I think its a reasonable assumption at data is collected regularly on usage
I dont think its a reasonable assumption that attitudinal/popularity data is collected
Assuming that either of these two different types of data are being collected, I don’t believe they’ve ever made such data available to the general public other than the usage data for a single day that we’ve already discussed
I don’t think thats a fair or reasonable assumption
the decision to not make a change to one part of the product may be because other changes - such as fixing the many severe problems 222 has added to the game, or coding OW2, or getting seasonal event stuff ready - take priority.
as with anything in life, if one has more things to do than can get done, which is where Blizzard is with OW, once has to choose what to do and what to leave til later
this isn’t related to what I was speaking of in the quote from me above, and as such, I don’t understand the statement being made here
I stated “many”
I stand by what I stated
There are many folks who never engage with any documentation outside of the game itself. They dont use the forums, they dont read announcements on the website, etc etc etc. If they dont normally use the arcade, they wouldnt have any reason to go there to check to see if there is a new mode to play.
Yes, as it is important to mention when folks attempt to compare usage data for main menu items versus sub menu items.
Apples to orange.
Since folks continue to try to use the single-day data where this was the case, yes, I have to keep explaining why that data isnt applicable
same claim results in same response
For 222 modes, both are accessed from the main game selection screen
Not so in the case of role-less queue, especially on the day the data in question was pulled
do all players want these bonus lootboxes? i have heard many players say they have thousands of coins and dozens of unopened lootboxes
did all players go to the arcade and check what was there before deciding what game mode to play on the exact day when the data was pulled?
And the available data has been provided, you know that there is nothing else as of now.
The data is valid as a snapshot for that day, is it likely that it has changed? Yes, is it likely that it has changed that role queue is no longer necessary? To me that’s unlikely but that’s what you are arguing yes?
To my knowledge blizzard don’t use polls much. If people enjoy OQ while actively disliking 222 I see no reason why they would force themselves to play 222 when the other option is available.
This is based on the assumption that removing 222 requires a lot of time to do. Severe problems, what exactly are those? There is queue times and there’s balance, the latter which is a constant challenge and is one of the main reasons why 222 exists. If things were perfect on day 1 there would be no patch notes.
The problems with OQ that caused 222 still exist and they will always exist, nothing has changed on that front, which is why RQ is still necessary.
Considering that Comp and QP based on the stats they provided are the most played modes, I think it’s fair to assume that making sure people are happy with those is a high priority.
How is it not? Your argument is based on OQ not being popular simply because an undisclosed amount of people didn’t know it existed in arcade. Surely with it being on the main comp card people are aware that it exists and if ti was the prefered mode of the community, then most people would be playing it which in my opinion would have caused a response from the DEVs.
Yes, which is why your argument isn’t valid, it’s pure speculation. “Many” is relative, 1 million is many however if it’s out of 10 million it’s not in comparison.
For the many to matter it has to be close to an equal part or the majority.
Again, your many could just as easily be a small minority.
Like I said, the data we have is a snapshot of a day. It has some validity as opposed to speculation which has none. You have no idea how many people your argument is based on and you have no idea of providing any proof of it. At this point, the burden of proof is on you. If you want to keep speculating you are free to do so, but it’s a discussion that leads to nowhere. Nothing to gain from it.
Speculations again, do you not see how this leads to nothing, you keep asking questions you know can’t be answered and use those as the crux of your argument.
Beggars can’t be choosers.
I’d like to end the discussion at this point with my final argument for the OP as this discussion we are having is an endless loop of endless madness and arguing for the sake of arguing.
Yes RQ is still necessary because the things that made it necessary in the first place like, inconsistent match experience (on many levels) and balance still exist in the format and nothing has been done to change that in the slightest. “Solutions” like grouping is not universal due to restrictions based on rank. Nothing about OQ is different now compared to before as nothing has been done to improve the match quality. GOATs is not the sole reason to why 222 exists, and even if that comp isn’t the best in OQ now, the problem that it represents can still occur at any time in OQ.
the data provided doesn’t support the claim
bad data doesnt become good data simply because it is the only data available
yes, it is likely
222 has never been necessary
Thousands upon thousands of players have played this game in roleless queue modes without issue
They did it before 222 was inflicted upon the game
They did it when role-less queue mode was reintroduced to the game by popular demand
they’re doing so now, as I write this and as you red this
they will continue to do so as long as role-less queue mode is available to be played
they’ve sent out a few surveys that people have talked about, but generally not
for the bribes
because friends want to play it
for the extra comp points
etc etc etc
the most well known of them is the excessive queuing times
not at all
222 was inflicted on all of us players due to a ticket selling issue in OWL.
It could have been added to OWL only, but sadly it infested the game for all of us
those single day stats do not support the argument that those are the most played modes
It isn’t pure speculation at all
Many people do play role-less queue modes
not at all
it is Blizzards decision on how many matter, and it was Blizzards decision that there was enough interest in role-less queue mode to have it return
and it did, albeit not completely to this point, and in stages.
But return it did
it has no validity whatsoever based on the apples to oranges comparison alone, not to mention the other reasons
not at all
the claim was made by the OP and certain other forum members
the burden lies with them
again, 222 was never and is not now necessary
many people are playing non-222 mode games without any problems at all
if 222 were necessary, those players would not be able to play those games