How to fix Spin2Win without ruining other interactions

General Discussion
1

Let’s get one thing out of the way:

The recent Ball changes affect more than just spin2win.

It limits other valid strats used by Ball. There are spots where Ball can hang in the enemy backlines and spy undetected. There are other hang spots Ball can use to drop down on enemies when they pass through.

Ball players often “prime” their grapple beforehand in order to reduce activation time on particular spots/combos.

Several rollouts or map techs, while not directly requiring 6s of grapple, are much harder without it. For example, Ball can grapple a moving platform, then get behind map geometry and wait until the platform moves. If he lets go right as the platform jerks him around the geometry, he can fling himself straight into the air for a more creative attack angle.

These are strats used by high-level players, and while it doesn’t hurt his capability that much, it takes away some fun skill expression and makes him feel clunkier to play.

How to fix Spin2Win while avoiding these problems.
Let’s be clear here. I don’t think Spin2Win is a problem. It’s extremely easy to counter, even without CC. You can focus-fire the Ball down in no time flat, and if all he’s doing is moving in a predictable circle, he’s not giving hardly any value, compared with a tank who is actually doing things.

BUT, if we’re determined to remove it, here’s how we can do that while keeping his other techs in place.

  1. Make it so that Ball’s grapple breaks after 6s in combat
  2. Give it an indicator, for clarity, when it’s going to break.

We know that Blizzard has a system for determining if heroes are in combat or not (we saw it used for some OW2 beta tests). None of the longer uses that I’m aware of actually happen in combat, but Spin2Win is always a combat move. So if Ball’s chain only breaks while in combat, we preserve his other interactions and make him less clunky while still killing spin2win.

An indicator of how long his grapple has left would be needed to warn Ball players that they entered combat, and it’s going to break soon. Frankly, an indicator is needed now anyway.

TL:DR
Putting grapple on a timer affects more than just spin2win. The best way to keep his other techs intact and to reduce clunkiness is to make it so the chain only breaks after 6s of being in-combat, and also give him an indicator of when it’s going to break.

I hope Blizzard considers this. It would be a huge step towards making Ball feel better to play while also keeping the reduction in Spin2Win tactics.

17 Likes
2

Problem solved.
With that notation, the nerf can stay.

6 Likes
3

The nerf shouldn’t even be a thing in the first place.

Is pharah forced to land after 6 seconds if my team doesn’t have hitscan?

Are snipers forced to be within 20m of my team too?

Flankers forced to have their mobility disabled if my team doesn’t run brig?

6 Likes
4

I like this suggestion

2 Likes
5

I agree, but I also acknowledge that this is something Blizzard wants to do. A lot of players seem to want this too.

I think the best way forward is to reduce the impact. This solution still lets Ball do his techs and targets it so specifically that Spin2Win is pretty much the ONLY thing affected.

I’d much rather see them QoL this change so that it’s less obnoxious than just ignore him entirely.

2 Likes
6

What constitutes active combat? LoS detection, radial distance, taking damage?

7

Not entirely sure, they didn’t specify how their “in combat” detection works. My assumption would be if you deal or take damage.

1 Like
8

Make it so you can’t hook the payload
Hooking on the payload has the duration
Add a damage threshold that when reached breaks the connection, even if he was healed back to full.
Make it that the objects he can hook on to have their own CD, So if he is broken off it he can’t just go right back on it.
Teach the player base about the many, many ways to counter him spinning in an incredibly predicable circle.

9

Taking damage, dealing damage (or trying to) in the last 5 sec.

10

Spin to win is a git gud problem like countering Bastion.

They didn’t need to do that nerf and really bizarre choice when other high dmg, cc, and the other tools that lopsided balance needed greater priority of addressing.

The devs make weird choices both in timing and direction for the changes they put in the game.

I expect this mess to continue in OW 2 and that’s alright cause plenty other games to play and on sale right now.

Giving an indicator would be a good step in the right direction. I’d vote for audio cue because there’s already too many visual clutter in the game imo

11

Easy solution

Keep infinite grapple, but make the attachment claw have a health of 75

1 Like
12

That would just eliminate Spin 2 Win entirely rather than merely putting a cap on it’s effectiveness for low rank players.

I think the OP’s idea is better because it allows WB to still have it for the fun silly stuff or skill expression stuff, without allowing an overly effective tactic in low ranks to continue.

I don’t think “low ranks should just get good,” is an acceptable answer to stuff overperforming in their rank is fixable without butchering the character or having a large impact in high ranks. This game does need to do that kind of balancing occasionally, so it’s not a surprise that the eventually put a limit to this cheese strat.

But, that being said the way they went about handling it doesn’t take into consideration Ball players enough IMO. I mean, if you’re gonna introduce a cooldown at the bare minimum there should be an indication of that cooldown. That’s like just doing the least right there.

2 Likes
13

I’m not keen on in combat / out of combat mechanics, but if you were to have something like this, it would work well.

Another way is adaptive shields only start their cooldown timer once Grapple has disconnected. This gives the same thing, but doesn’t rely on an “in combat or out of combat” system, and typically when you are going to adaptive shield, disconnection is almost always instantly after that, if not before.

You could even reduce it’s cooldown a little bit as part of that.

If you are hiding and waiting for the drop, then you will still have adaptive shield. If you are trying to get back up because you fell off the edge of a thing, then you are also still good.

But if you are spinning endlessly on the point retrigging adaptive over and over again, that won’t work.

Nice, easy, doesn’t introduce new mechanics.

14

Wrecking ball has abysmal win rates at lower ranks.

He has the lowest or 2nd lowest win % from bronze to plat

15

I’m assuming from what we saw in OW2 that it’s not a new mechanic, or at least that it’s something their system is well-equipped to handle.

I’m fine with what you suggested, as long as AS cooldown is reduced at least 1s to compensate. You often spend at least 1s in swing during AS, so it’d be a straight nerf to his traditional playstyle if not.

I really do hope the decide to fine-tune this though instead of giving such a rough solution.

16

Great idea

Simply if he is taking damage?

17

How about instead of when “in combat” make it so balls grapple only breaks after 6s of being in fireball mode? That would only effect spin2win!

18

Oh, oh, I have an idea, and this is a wiiiild one…

Wait for it…

…

Just stun him 4Head

No, seriously, there are like 5-6 heroes in the game without some sort of CC, how hard is it to hit the biggest hitbox in the entire game moving in a predictable direction? We might as well revert some Mei nerfs. You know, Mei, the biggest counter to him. Might as well not buff her, just pick her and put a wall in his way, problem solved.

1 Like
19

Spin2Win is problem for who exactly ? for people below 500 sr ?

4 Likes
20

Good suggestions. They rightfully address the terribly - designed, low skill - high reward mess that is the Spin 2 Win play style while also limiting the collateral damage of the latest change.

Would Hammond’s hook having a bit larger hitbox and being destructible also a good alternative?