Community hypocrisy when it comes to tanks

Yeah, people seem to just blindly blame DPS when it comes to tanks dying too fast.

Realistically, the issue lies within supports and tanks themselves more than DPS, especially with Hog, who does better damage than most DPS and has more survivability, being as prevalent as he is at the moment

Rein is actually the most popular tank, at least most popular main tank and he isn’t exactly known for shooting

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Ashe is quite literally, only nerfed from release.
apart from a 0.05s reload buff and a few gun tweaks.
She outputs significantly less damage.

Widow does less.
Cassidy does less.
Torb does similar.
Sombra unchanged.
Reaper less.
Junk one more mine.
Pharah the same.
Tracer the same.
Genji is slightly higher.
Soldier is higher.
the entire dps roster either does less than launch or the buffs they did get lets them compete with the now weakened dps category.

Are you really saying that there is still damage creep?
Majority of DPS do less. The ones that are buffed still only barely compete with the DPS that were nerfed.

If anything damage creep comes from the tank role with all the spam damage Orisa Sigma Ball can put out.

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I bet if you asked Rein players what they like best about Rein, it’s the charge, hammer and firestrike killing things and cleaving your enemies. Not the defensive barrier.

Also notice how Reinhardt’s abilities are almost purely offensive with one defensive tool. Like Hog?

no tank players want damage nerfs across the board. but dps have proven they want damage numbers to keep climbing so if you dont want nerfs to make tanks competitive buff them

No.
DPS got heavily powercrept between September 2018 and May 2019.
With the goal of killing goats without forcing a role lock. Those buffs were never truly scaled back and so we ended up heroes like hanzo being able to delete tanks with minimal skill involved.

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and if you actually read any of those you would see the main gripe is the lack of survivability not lethality

and the last ExC proved that survivability alone makes tanks horrible to play lol. A tank that shoots marshmallows is not a tank.

We like him because of how he is designed. Yeah, swinging your hammer is fun, but if you took away his shield then I can guarantee you Rein players would not like that change even if his hammer got buffed in return.

Rein has a fun playstyle, at least in my opinion as a Rein main. You are able to balance aggression and playing defensively and you have definitive weaknesses and the way you play defensively is also rather enjoyable, assuming you aren’t just being a rectangle man of course.

Sure, Rein can do some good damage, but that isn’t why people play him because if damage was the main contributor to people playing tanks, then Hog would be the most popular tank, and yet he isn’t.

This is simply because gameplay, offensive and defensive combined, will always be a better deciding factor when it comes to a hero being found enjoyable

So in other words, make tanks have interactive kits, don’t just blindly buff their damage because that doesn’t help nearly as much as people seem to think it would

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That’s exactly my point lol. Tank synergies don’t so much exist to help each other survive. Like when I bubble a rein, ball or winston as Zarya it’s mostly to help them stay in longer to do more damage lol. As opposed to whenever I bubble a support it’s always because they’re about to die from something :sweat_smile:

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I also think the way things are done is different, early OW was about quickly taking their Supports out because they couldn’t protect themselves, nowadays it’s more about overwhelming Tanks with damage because Support have all these tools to stop being dived/flanked so it’s a waste of time pouring resources into them a lot of the time

I think OW2 is trying to go back into that style of gameplay, as it was often regarded as “The Golden Days” of OW, though I’m very skeptical about Support-treatment for the same reasons you mentioned

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Ana was literally a throw pick for months a patch after she released - it wasnt until they started gutting tank’s shields and other team/self survival tools that burst healing outside ultimates became a thing, and it hasnt even been really an arms race. Ana is still the strongest healer in the game and all posterior supports, while healing more than Zen/Lucio, at no point healed more than Ana.

In fact healing creep isnt really a thing because every support has had their healing nerfed compared to their release state. It just feels like healers heal more because thats all they generally can do to keep their tanks and dps alive now-a-days that barriers are paper thin and other tank tools have been sacrificed at the OWL balance altar.

Damage creep, however is entirely real because both supports and tanks have been pelted with a compensation DPS buff for every 2 nerfs to their healing or team survival.

and something that needs to be noted for others is that “flankers” includes dive tanks.

i.e. sure, some people can try arguing upping damage on supports to deal with typical dps squishier flankers in compensation for cc loss and no off-tank that can possibly help peel for them, but regardless of how contestable that argument is for dps flankers (because of how hypermobile they are), that argument absolutely falls flat when it comes to dive tank flankers because for that to work, that means making supports capable in being tank busters which obvs ain’t going to reasonable.

Once PvE comes out if it is even remotely close to being decent and fun I will never touched ranked or QP again.

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Devs’ intentions are to make the game more fast paced, so no matter what everybody will die faster, even Tanks, but the goal is to make tanks more fun while contributing to the faster paced game.

For that to happen tanks need self agency to play offensively, just like DPS characters already have it (making people consider them the most fun role), such as a good mix of these characteristics:

  • Ranged attacks / shots,
  • Spikes / Bursts in Damage output through Combos / Shots,
  • Mobility / Escapes,
  • And Self-Heals / Self-Resistances.

Devs didn’t gave all tanks good mixes of those before, making them more team reliant and it took GOATs coordination in high ranks to cover each other (Tanks and Supports) weaknesses while promoting their strengths, which shows that despite the team reliance, if you get that covered their synergy is the most impactful in the game.

Moving to solo tanks means they gotta have more self-reliance somehow to soften their own weakness, getting more self-agency, while they contribute in a fun way for the faster paced game.

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Please do point the the part where Hanzo does more damage to tanks than previous?
Scatter arrow: Deletes orisa in one shot
Storm Arrow: Does a significant amount of damage but requires headshots

Also Mei:

  • ammo nerf
  • Freeze duration nerf on both primary and blizzard
  • Wall cooldown nerf

Poor mei

Reaper:

  • damage nerf

Granted in exchange for a range buff but still a nerf to damage

Symmetra:

  • nerf to turret damge
  • nerf to beam damage
  • revert to orb damage
  • nerf to wall

Hm doesnt seem very powercrept

Pharah?

  • Revert to fire rate buff

What about Echo? (not around in GOATS)

  • solely nerfed since launch

Hm perhaps if we look at Tracer:

  • Pulse bomb nerf

Even she got a nerf

What else? Cassidy?

  • Fire rate nerf

he got other buffs but a damage nerf.

Ashe:

  • Solely nerfed since launch bar 2 minor buffs

Widow:

  • Solely nerfed

What is actually stronger?

  • Soldier, whom was weak anyway
  • Genji who was weak anyway.

what more do you want these heroes have been tuned down.

Yes but storm arrow is consistent damage.
Scatter was highly random, storm arrow will consistently deal 400-600 damage to tanks/shields.
Im not particularly in the mood to sort through patch records to figure out numbers but I can tell you dps damage has gone up overall.
Especially taking into account how much better focus fire is nowadays.

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It went from being an OP mess that promoted anti-game/ not engaging to a skill that is situationally great and requires awareness and sense of opportunity with a high risk high reward dynamic.

You know, instead of mindlessly humping every corpse you come across when the cooldown is up, or pressing ultimate to do it twice in a row on an hilariously broken 10 second no cast time cooldown, as it was right after the rework.

‘‘Situationally’’ is bad. Just look at team TP or speedboost, both have relegated the hero to literally 1-2 comp enablers who are good in a couple of maps.

Rez being good when its situational will be good when discord, nade, lamp, etc are also ‘’‘’‘’‘’‘’‘’‘’‘situational’‘’‘’‘’‘’‘’‘’‘’'.

Maybe the answer is that Rez should not be a cooldown ability in the first place.

How much damage do you think that it does?
It’s 70 per arrow, up to 5 with headshots.
that’s 700 maximum and I can tell you with certainty, not once have I ever seen a Hanzo get 3 crits let alone 2 with storm arrow. At best I’ve seen it do 490 damage.
And Hanzo can miss or have these blocked.

I know lots of patch records.
All the dps except a couple are nerfed.

D.Va is probably the least overpowered, if even you can call her overpowered. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

D.Va has like no SOLO carry potential, and this meta is literally deathmatch mode. D.Va is only played when she can get value (or needing to soft-counter / contest roadhog) but she’s not overpowered. She’s strong.

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