This happens not only in game development, but in almost every job that involves feedback.
You cannot please everyone, and you must be able to sort out the right feedback from the selfish/misled one.
Even if it upsets a small percentage of your community it has to be done. The only feedback that you can listen and follow without risk is the one that has only positive results for you.
For example, lore feedback. If blizz could pump lore content more frequently, they could only benefit. Sadly for some weird reason they don’t.
I completely agree that hard counters are just awful in a game like this, but in some ways the implementation of hard counters was to stop “one tricks”… I mean how else do you prevent people playing one character even into their soft counters?
Thing is “one tricks” were never as much of a problem as people went on about, if someone in the competitive ladder wants to play only Genji or only Pharah or only Mercy or only Torb… Was that really as much of a problem as people made out? Lets be honest the one trick “problem” would probably have been solved by a role preference que and a score board.
Hard counters on the other hand… just prevent people from playing what they want to play, or cause frustration if you don’t have someone who plays the counter, or if someone doesn’t want to switch, outcome isn’t determined by skill but determined by pressing H.
2. Ultimates
When the game released there were 3 support ultimates that countered dps/tank ultimates, in general the support roster countered what dps players did.
With the introduction of Ana she still had counter-play to ultimates in terms of her sleep, so this idea of supports countering dps still held.
Now as much as everyone wants to hate on Mass-Rez, at the end of the day it WAS a counter-play ult.
The support roster as a whole having strong counter-play ultimates enabled the dps/tank ultimates to be as strong as they are.
If you are going to go down the path of weakening all ultimates across the board, what is even the point of having them? Having to think about ult economy and what the enemy has to counter you does add nuance to the game, we need more counter-play options in my opinion, that is - the support roster should have ultimates designed as counter play to dps ultimates.
You and I are in agreement in our opinions. Though I must admit that Mercy during the Moth meta, at the beginning of the rework, was still quite oppressive in it’s own right.
~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance. xavvypls
I think the netire thing boild down to
People hate CC,people hate loosing control over their character,people hate not being able to actually play the game.
CCsucks
It was actually not my assumption, I gave you the exact point of the video I pulled it from (15:00 - 15:30).
The issue I have with this, if ultimates are this powerful… if one team has ults you’re fine, if one team has ults and you don’t, then you’re kind of screwed. The snowballing that creates a lot of the time makes you feel like you’re not going to have fun in the next team fight, you just know that you’re probably screwed.
Or how about 16:25 - 16:35?
I think ults are a lot of the time, I have more Q’s therefore I win. That’s sort of how the gameplay breaks down to me personally.
Ok, after reading these, your response is still:
How on earth do you find that logical or a fact? That’s just another Q that swung the fight yet again. How is that a solution to ANYTHING he’s talking about?! If anything, it only adds to the problem of the outcome of the game being decided on Q’s.
Meanwhile I just add fun killing really tough enemy with a random dude in Fallout 76. Getting a lot of loot.
We silently agreed to help each other every once in a while.
Then Meanwhile after playing one match of Overwatch way earlier, I get an angry message to delete my game. Even though I was aiding my team so much with Defense matrix, that match.
One ult being used to counter 5 ults is less “Qs” than “5 ults to counter 4 ults.” There is less Ult spam, because it’s less obvious as to “whoever has the most ults win.” Mass res literally makes that strategy irrelevant, and invites ult economy to be taken more seriously because of it. That’s simple math really. Not sure what else to tell you.
~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance. xavvypls
Not much different from what I said. Goats works at the highest ladder level, just like dive was. People can do it there because they can coordinate. Goats stop being a problem from masters and below (just like dive was).
Having a meta in the highest levels of play is inevitable. And I assure you, nothing looks fun if you watch that repeatedly (except if you play it yourself of course)
With the same logic, tracer was broken and ridiculous in the dive meta. I believe she wasn’t, just like brigitte isn’t now.
They can nerf brigitte to oblivion for all i care, but people will find something else to complain about (the next meta).
No, it just turns into, “You also need to have this ONE ultimate in addition to the other combos of ultimates to win” which was the problem with mass rez in the first place. It doesn’t fix the Q battle at all, it just adds to it. Don’t know how you can’t understand that, I hope you’re trolling based on your name.
Here’s the thing, though: this is a non-issue, but not for the reasons you suggest.
Seagull’s complaint that people will rage if their teammate is hard countered holds no water because people will ALWAYS rage at teammates if they pick a character that is (A) not fulfilling a necessary role (“Why do we have 3 DPS and 1 Tank?”), (B) weaker on the tier list (“Yo, can we lose the Torb? He sucks.”), or ( C) extremely skill intensive “Hanzo, you suck. I’m Moira and I have Gold damage and kills.” Complaining about teammates being hard countered is just a symptom of a greater disease.
That is inevitable in any game. I used to play online PvE games a lot, and it’s the exact same thing. If you don’t play the character the team wants you to play, or play them the way they want you to play them, they rage, they kick you from the lobby, or they rage quit.
Hard counters also serve the purpose of trying to enforce character diversity–something Blizzard has said is part of their core game philosophy. Even hard counters didn’t exist, tiers would still exist, but they’d be entirely DPS-dependent. If Dive Tanks didn’t counter Widow, every game would be sniper-v-sniper like in other FPSes. You probably wouldn’t even have characters like Genji or Sombra, depending on how “hard” we’re talking about.
I tend to agree with Seagull that hard counters are a problem. Not just for increasing the penalty of having inflexible teammates, but also by making the rock paper scissors element of the game too big. Smart character choices should be a part of the win, not the whole enchilada.
GOATS is absolutely viable at all ranks. I play it in mid diamond and played it in plat and use it to roll teams because unlike Dive, GOATS doesn’t take coordination. It’s a press W comp. It works in this game as an instant win button. If I’m playing and I see that my team is clearly getting outskilled, I call out GOATS and we win. Dive only worked at highest levels, GOATS works at all levels.
They need to take some lessons from the already established professional gaming community, broaden the ranking system. SR rank should not cap, but show a progress of win to loss ratio for a player. but have a secondary rank system to show individual hero performance, similar to how we already have borders based on your personal account level.
But the True fix to help cure the toxicity would be adding a new ranked competitive for role que, where matchmaking is prefaced with the player choosing their hero pick and then waiting to fill through matchmaking. While classic competitive needs to introduce Hero ban picks prior to round starts, The Hero Ban allows for more than one Meta to exist in the competitive scene, and would create more opportunity for Flex players to shine. Alot of great players are stuck with the random chance of trying to fill spaces that teammates leave, wether they bee 1triks, no mic, a three stack, or any other factor that plays into how hard it can be to communicate with a team of random people being thrown into a match. With the Hero ban/pick forces a team to communicate prior to a match starting and should allow players that brief window to decide to back out or work together.
High shields and high heals don’t work at low levels? Of course it does. The only way to beat it is have strong coordinated attacks to take out the heals first so you can punish the tanks then. You’re not going to get that nearly as much at lower levels. I mean if you don’t have the worry about dying the game becomes much easier.
Strange, did he defended Tracer plays/counter plays? isn’t seagull the most know tracer hater who always complained how broken she is.
Playing any game 1000 hours is more than enough - playing non stop Overwatch will make any gamer go nuts just like any other game.
But he is right regarding the nuanced play style and how it’s slowly replaced with rock paper hero pick counter.
If it worked at all levels, then brig (the enabler) wouldn’t have a overall 3.83% pickrate, she would have over 10%, just like Rein or ana has. I also sometimes play it, and against it in plat/ low diamond and it slightly loses more than wins in either case, and i see it in less than my 30% of games. I actually like playing vs goats because I know how to break them. The reason for that is if you make a quick pick or break their formation, goats instantly crumbles. In highest levels, goats usually makes the first pick because of good coordination. As lower as you go, it fails and crumble more easily. Stats tell the same thing.
