Are you shooting or not? If not, the ammo isnât drained. Still donât think you understand what i ment. Think D.va defense matrix; Not using it? not draining.
Not shooting, not draining. That is how ammunition worksâŚ
Which is what the balance changes does, your damage is massive: If you hit every shot while having 20 damage per shot, youâll effectively down a player in a 1/3 of a second.
You can bait the enemy out to a bad position if you wait with your Sentry mode. Orisa shield? Gone in 1.5 seconds if only you are shooting it.
The point i am making about these changes isnât that they benefit the enemy, rather benefits Bastion massively.
If you arenât shooting, you arenât a threat.
If you arenât a threat youâre being attacked.
I donât think you understand what area denial is.
Iâd reconsider everything youâve written.
As i believe they do the opposite.
Lets say you take down that barrier after shooting to bait someone out, but they didnât take that bait.
Well when you ARE finally attacked, what then⌠are you kicked out of Sentry Mode just for draining that meter?
Yea no.
Itâs a hard set restriction, and i hate it.
You canât rely solely on this idea that someone is going to walk straight into your gun, or even be willing to take your bait if they know it can be used up and baited out itself.
You arenât going to âUseâ all of the ammo you have, and thus cannot possibly think basing time in sentry mode on how often you hit the enemy.
Because surprisingly, that makes Bastion TOO MUCH of a glass cannon.
Meaning you either hit your shots predicatively and kill the enemy every time, or you die.
(And youâd still probably die anyways)
Which in a real world setting means you have Sentry baited out, and you die.
I get what this is trying to do, itâs trying to discourage bunker⌠but this is ridiculous extremes.
Dealing 600-750DPS but then if you shoot for barely 3 seconds youâve got to wait 20-30 seconds to do the same??!? This reminds me of Team Fortress 2 randomiser mode or those weird server mods, itâs just so extreme.
This is like giving Soldier a helix rocket that does 200 damage but on a 20-30 second cooldown.
I donât think thatâs really showing through.
450DPS is already something you shouldnât fact off against, the only reason it isnât is because of spread.
Not solving that problem yet dialling up the damage is where things just go to crazy town.
Thatâs not really anything like a machine gun nest though. Machine guns arenât limited by such long cooldowns and such short bursts of fire.
I get your concept, itâs a nice concept⌠but itâs just so off-kilter.
Not really because Bastionâs hitbox means he can never try to drag out a fight in recon mode.
Soldierâs hitbox is small enough that he can move only a bit to left or right to get his hitbox entirely off a crosshair that was centred on him. Bastion is so wide it takes so much longer to get his broad hitbox off a crosshair the A+D strafing rhythm is slow enough to follow.
So while Soldier 76 can dodge most attacks coming his way and on top of that use biotic field to keep him alive while still attacking, Bastion canât do anything remotely equivalent.
Bastion doesnât need a big clip size chugging along at a below average 160DPS, even when he has a mere 20 round clip size that wasnât really a problem as you only had time to fire 20 shots before you were fragged in a close range fight anyway!
Think about it, it takes 4.4sec for Bastion to shoot 35 rounds, thatâs long enough for Reaper to dump all 8 shots dealing potentially 1120 damage. 4.4sec is long enough for symm to charge up to level 3 beam and have done 340 damage at max beam power. Itâs long enough for McCree to have fanned the hammer on you 3 times! Itâs enough time for Doomfist to rocket punch you then the cooldown expire on rocket punch to rocket punch you again!
To be blunt, right now you come off as more or less:
âI donât like this therefore itâs badâ
What it does is:
Increase Bastion damage in Sentry mode, to either 20 or 25, based on feedback. (Bastion headshot damage before the change was 30)
Makes you as a Bastion player play a more mobile, and yet keeps the core concept of the character; A machinegun nest.
Makes Recon mode slightly more deadly than it already is, itâs not much that is required to hit someone at a range.
And you just locked down the area by just being present there, effectively make them chose another route, and if youâre aware enough, you move away from there to surprise them when they attack.
If youâre within the Reaperâs range, you should lose.
The idea of a machinegun nest is that the mere present of something like that will put people off. If you back off from a fight and enter sentry mode and have ammo, you will be telling the enemy to back off, or they will loose the fight.
@ TREB
Appriciate the feedback though. Do consider that what i gave as an example to the damage was the minimum suggested, with 25 damage per shot being the highest.
Magy! Iâve gone into a game to test this and yeah, the shield does disappear quick, however looks are deceiving, that shield disappearing quickly entirely negated a 150 damage shot from Roadhog. Itâs not supposed to be a super shield, bastion isnât a tank after all, the shield shouldnât have to stay there for ages for it to do its job.
I trust I wonât disappoint you in telling you I almost immediately began altering your code without consulting the source notes. I have very likely damaged it but I canât be sure.
I changed it from âIs button being pressed (ability 2)â to âis ability 1 being usedâ and no⌠doesnât work. Youâre only âusingâ ability one while transforming. Darn.
But thank you so much for the work youâve done so far, this is really well put together and I think we can learn a huge amount from this.
Yeah but⌠thatâs hitting them in the head.
And the devs did get rid of that, probably for the same reason they got rid of McCreeâs right click from dealing headshots. And asheâs coach gun too. There isnât really a âbullets always headshotâ rule in Overwatch.
Headshots are hugely contentious, personally Iâm willing let HS go on the grounds of preserving his damage as a machine gunner.
You may find Iâve said this a lot of times but I often use the idea âshooting a hole in your carâs radiator doesnât really enable you to walk more, Iâve just hugely limited your ability to drive your carâ.
Youâve just made it so bastion HAS to move because heâs out of ammo and is reloading REALLY slowly.
The only way to stay out of Reaperâs range is to stay way too far back and hunker down around allies⌠a bunker. I donât want to be in a bunker, I want to strike out in recon mode but that means going around corners, where I might run into a Reaper. And I canât run away with suppression fire as he has Wraith that can cover 25m at 150% movement speed.
Itâs not just reaper, itâs loads of heroes. Bastion doesnât need a gun that slowly fires over long periods of time. People are tying to use him as a soldier, plinking from long range. Thatâs a job Solider 76 will always be able to do better and why try to make him only as good as him doing the same thing most of the time?
But youâre missing out a rather important aspect on a machine gun nest is the PERSISTENT thread, if you KNEW a machine gun nest was going to be basically completely out of ammo after firing the equivalent of a single 30 round mag and was now going to be super vulnerable for the next 20-30 seconds as they slowly thumb single rounds into their single mag.
Well⌠thatâs fundamentally different.
Yes, in this case you give bastion a 100 round mag but divide the capacity by 3.3, divide the fire rate by 3.3 and multiply the damage by 3.3, you have something that would be a bren gun. Except instead of quickly replacing a spent mag with a full spare mag in about 1 sec the mag is being removed and slowly reloading the single magazine one charger clip at a time. Thatâs not really what would limit a Bren gun or why theyâd need to frequently reposition.
Youâd PERFECTLY nailed one aspect of machine gun nests, that they have to frequently resposition⌠what youâve failed to factor is WHY they reposition.
Youâve invented an artificial limitation, rather than allow the natural limitation. The natural limitation on machine gun nests is how they lose the element of surprise, how a stationary target is very vulnerable to certain attacks which are very analogous to abilities in overwatch.
The reasons bastions donât want to move is because of the way ironclad biases all decision trees to stay in sentry mode except when you have unusual certainty in predicting exactly what will happen.
I discussed this Ironclad dilemma earlier in this thread.
I have considered that⌠where I said it would be 750DPS.
Youâre not really balancing this, youâre far too focused on a way that you know is going to quite easily neutralise Bastion (extremely limited fire time with artificially slow reload) and youâre too focused on coming up with something, anything, to justify that rather convenient limitation.
And as HUGE as that 750DPS is⌠it so often it doesnât matter.
So many things in the game grant 100% immunity to damage like Reaperâs wraith form, Meiâs ice block, immortality field, Defence Matrix, Fade, Translocate, recall, Genjiâs Deflect.
Oh my god, Genjiâs deflect I just realised. If he jumps in front of you with deflect and factoring how heâs effectively the shooter and it favours the shooter on lag, this is not good balancing.
Bastion canât really do the other jobs of a machine gun nest, thereâs no element of suppression with this.
also, the âis using ability 1â should work but, i prefer it to be manual, because i can toggle it when i want and block what i want, and not let it be decided by the enemy, which is something i dont like at all, it also makes bastion more highskill since the shield is less passive
A lot of people have said âwhatâs the problem with ironcladâ and itâs worth revising some of the problems with this means of âbuffingâ bastion in sentry mode. Consider the specifics of how ironclad works, it is only providing the 20% damage resistance after having fully reconfigured into sentry mode and the instant you begin to exit sentry mode you lose this 20% damage reduction.
How this damage reduction is a benefit across the entire 300HP of bastionâs health bar. It allows bastion to survive up to 375 damage (before factoring armour) which sounds pretty good⌠except thereâs a problem⌠are only that tough if you STAY in sentry mode.
Lets say you were hit by 120 damage attack and that attack was reduced to only 93 damage by Ironclad (armour also helped), lets follow through the logic of deciding âoh dear, time to escape!â but this attack has reduced you to 207HP! Oh dear. Thatâs not good. Youâve got a hitbox the size of roadhog and have health barely more than a squishy
Yikes.
âAhh, but Iâve got ironclad, Iâm getting that benefit.â
No, you donât, not if you try to relocate, as soon as you begin the transformation.
âOkay, but Ironclad still helped for that first shotâ
Yeah, but how much? At the point where you realised you have to escape ironclad has only reduced 27HP of damage.
If you stay in Sentry then your 207HP is equivalent to 259HP because of damage reduction. And itâs not like you can instantly gain the benefits of mobility, youâre stuck in an animation for 0.5sec and your head appears at a predictable point in that animation.
Compare and contrast with something like Bonus Armour (orange health) or a personal barrier instead of damage reduction.
If you get shot by a big burst of damage or your personal shield is destroyed, what is the state you are reduced to? If itâs +100 bonus armour youâre reduced to 283HP, and it IS 283HP, you donât need to stay in sentry mode to have that effective level of protection. For a personal barrier itâs reduced to 300HP, effectively youâre just as âtoughâ as in recon mode.
Other heroes have âextra toughnessâ done this way such as Torbâs overload, Doomfistâs passive and wrecking ballâs adaptive shield.
A âfront loadedâ extra protection means you can gain all the benefits early on then you donât have to stay in sentry mode to keep getting any use from the benefit.
The other problem with Ironclad is healing.
While in a way, Ironcladâs 20% damage reduction mean Bastion has effectively 375HP, because 375 reduced by 20% is 300. So youâd have to deal 375 damage to bastion to reduce him to 0HP. Yet to increase his HP from (just above) 0HP to 300HP, healers only need to apply 300HP of healing.
This imbalance is the healing advantage with Ironclad.
And Developers EXPLICITLY limited the amount of damage reduction not only how good the damage reduction is defending Bastion by himself, but how tough bastion was while he was being healed. In other words, bastion was nerfed to be not overpowered when being healed⌠with the inevitable consequence that heâs disproportionately less tough when not being healed.
But something like Bonus Armour or a Personal Barrier has the opposite of the damage reduction healing synergy⌠whatâs the opposite of synergy⌠discord?
Anyway, the point is if your Barrier or Bonus armour is shot off, the healer cannot recover that. So your healer can only get you back to 300HP raw, so only as tough as if you were still in recon. There is no synergy with healers unless you could activate the shield to protect you after taking damage so youâre being healed while the barrier of bonus armour takes the damage instead.
I agree, that would be better but it could be too good in that sort of synergy with healers.
I know it seems counterintuitive to deliberately sacrifice your health pool first but if you let your shield go firsts then all that time the shield is going, your healer is wasting time and they heal over time. If you get damaged first, THEN bring your barrier up, the shield gives your healer time to heal you up to 100% HP by the time the Barrier is destroyed or the bonus armour is shot off.
The problem with synergy with healers is the devs look at Bastionâs strength with healers and balance Bastion to not be too tough WITH healers⌠which then makes bastion too weak WITHOUT healers. They did it before, they said 35% ironclad was right for Bastion by himself, but when they considered how tough bastion was when being healed they nerfed Ironclad to an annoyingly low level.
Hmm, Iâm still trying to come up with a really short and simple way of explaining it but Iâll have to think about it.
Iâm not even saying it makes Bastion even all that good.
Ashe may be suffering from a similar problem.
Ashe kinda sucks and any talk of buffing her is countered by âwhat? Buff the hero that can OHK with a single hitscan? Hell no.â
I can see it in the future already: Ashe has her bullet damage reduced to 75 but her fire rate increased to 1 shot every 0.5 sec, so she canât OHK headshot with damage boost any more. But still OHK Tracer without damage boost.
Not really that great partners overall, theyâve got a strong push-pull interaction.
For example Genji depends on being highly evasive to avoid taking too much damage as heâs fighting his opponents, yet that movement that is trying to dodge enemy projectiles also naturally makes him equally as hard to hit with Anaâs healing. The only âsynergyâ is how Genjiâs dragon blade is juuuust a little too weak to really be worth it and Anaâs damage boost then makes his melee attacks worth it.
Itâs just an ult combo.
I think Iâm seeing the trend here, youâre listing any sort of generic compatibility.
I think Iâve really failed to emphasise how fundamentally different the healing is when itâs paired with damage reduction.
This is still just Lucio having his intended effect, this is not anything working more effectively than intended.
Perhaps my goal was too ambitious, as it seems people dislike the idea.
The goal was to balance it out to all brackets. Who like being put up against a good bunker comp and loose, feeling that their effort was minimal?
However i do like that you give a good perspective on things, and do appriciate the feedback, though not very constructive.
Genji reflect has always been a good counter to Bastion.
Machineguns does reposition because of one factor, and thats not the loss of surprise, but rather the vulnerability that you mentioned.
My suggestion was not to make an artificial limitation, but a resonable tradeoff for a buff in the massive damage bastion already had.
Perhaps if Bastion gained 20 rounds every 2 seconds would make YOU satisfied. The suggestion can be changed to be balanced across the board.
Ironclad does provide you with a sort of âcoverâ.
Some of us donât want a constant Pirate ship or bunker in every comp match we play, but rather see Bastion played more as a individiual dps. See a big difference between a skilled bastion player and a bad one.
Then youâve misinterpreted my suggestion completely, i designed it the other way around.
How could you balance Bastion without hurting his design? Based on the hours iâve played iâve frequently just needed a little more dps to survive the situation.
I started by thinking of how a machinegunner thinks when engaged in combat:
I need to set up a position so that the enemy will be suppressed.
Then i though of Overwatch and itâs use of shields, and specifically Bunker comp:
If the shield can be broken by my self before Orisa can throw up a new one, my team got a great advantage.
THEN i though of the limitation, based on the video:
Reloading ammo takes quite some time, what if it was the limitation Bastion had to this massive damage? And it reloads over time like D.va?
what is the meaning of this word, being serious this is the only thread ive seen on a few hundred game forums that has almost zero meme,s posted. Even from me and I am known for posting memes.
No memes, in this ENTIRE thread? Iâm more likely to believe the exclusion of all vowels than thatâŚ
I guess the Bastion-mains have turned this thread into serious business if thatâs the perception today (kinda boring though). Keep up the good fight guys, am rooting for you.
yeah I hate to tell you this my fellow brothers and sisters Bastion mains are extremely focused in everything to do with the state of Bastion. that being said there are posts on how to deal with pets suffering PTSD, players dealing with PTSD and multiple posts on guessing my actually age.(non existant to be honest but im the grandfather of this thread going by age alone.)
Your comparison with DVAâs DM illustrates perfectly why this is a problem, with it working on such similarly limited resource to defence matrix and similar defensive counters means Bastion can easily be shut down by such defensive counters.
No, youâre still far too focused on limiting Bastion. Thereâs far too little enabling of Bastion to function in different roles.
Concentrating his damage in time to the brief period defensive abilities last limits its power. You canât just lower your fire rate to extend the duration as inverse spread is such a huge penalty. No where in your proposal do you acknowledge how despite limiting max fire time to barely 3 seconds it takes 2 seconds for Bastionâs spread to shrink.
What youâve done is make bastionâs spread effectively WORSE as he has to fire a far greater proportion of his shots within 2 seconds of beginning firing where his spread is widest.
Thereâs already been talk on this thread about the problems with Bastionâs spread.
Too hard to keep trust level 3. As substitute please accept this ultra-minimalist ASCII art Bastion:
Patch notes from February 28, 2017 Bullet spread increased by 50% Bullet spread is always at maximum (it no longer increases as the weapon is fired)
Edit: Played Bastion and enabled the spread to be shown on crosshair, saw the increased accuracy as you fired, after some digging found the patch adressing this. Error on my part
Around November 2018: Weapon spread decreased by up to 33% while firing
Solution: Make it happen faster, alias around 20 rounds.
Perhaps instead of being a naysayer, contribute to construct.
The only thing on the resource meter should be his fuel in tank mode. Not in ult tho. His new ult would be two giant under water mines⌠for future content reasonsâŚ
Bastonks