I just like unconventional heroes, that do not rely on speed and firepower to achieve their goals. Healers, that win via heavy supporting; heroes with traps/turrets; and other such characters.
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No I think you are missing the point. In how effective range has changed. And her self defense how hp values have changed. Those are really important when choosing who to fight and what battles you can take
If you thought harder you could see how that changes the matchup list of characters you are willing to fight which is a massive part of this game. But you don’t put thought into how to apply things to 2.0 the only thought you put into 2.0 is how to frame her in a similar way to 3.0
I like unconventional methods of victory. So it took me a while after losing a nonhealing support to find a new way to win in really interesting ways.
I switched to Reddit lucio which is a pretty fun change of pace I went from no mobility to the fastest boi. And I can make so much space with my playstyle. A ton of fun and how I have gotten back into the game
Good luck in your games 
OMG I’ve been saying from the start that both old sym and sym3.0 without tp would be still:
- unable to get into effective range for either m1, orbs, nor turrets (good angles that would’ve lead to being shot down in 3.0 case) without either a team escort or massive distraction so that they can wasd into their desired place
- would still want to zone the same spots as turrets function pretty much the same way
- would still want to take down the same targets due to too high TTK on others and only wasd movement and insufficient sustain
- would still want to use orbs as initial burst before m1’ing when engaging enemies in effective range
- still be spamming orbs inconsistently the same way when they don’t have any opportunities to close in do something in effective range
legit, the big picture of “choosing who to fight and what battles you can take” right there.
the only difference you’ve presented thus far as what would justify the claim that “3.0 rework replaced the hero completely” is old barrier, but as shown previously, it legit didn’t make much of a difference when it came to the conditions to getting uptime/getting and staying in effective range, i.e. didn’t have a huge impact on the big picture “choosing who to fight and what battles you can take”.
Do you understand that their ranges that they are good at are widely different? They don’t have the same effective range that’s a huge part of the equation here.
The one similarity that you keep bringing up is they both have no mobility tools. Yes that’s true but basically everything else is different past that. Plenty of hero’s share the trait of no to low mobility but there is tons of flexibility with how they can be different even with that similarity that you overlook
Man guess who else has no mobility zen and Anna yet they aren’t the same at all because they have different effective ranges and ways to use their kits. This is the most obvious thing that you just can’t wrap your head around
primary only has 2m longer than old primary. current orbs have an effective range of like less than 15m as can be shown by the following:
if you use those equations to find the Dodgeable Direct Range you get approx. 8.522727273m.
can sym m1 from where zen, ana or heck where moira typically positions? hell no.
can sym achieve the same “aimability” with orbs from from where zen, ana or heck where moira typically positions? obviously not from the above calculations. it mathematically shows your argument is wrong.
hence all the points I presented in my previous reply that I’ve been binging up multiple times.
her range did not increase enough to pass nor even reach the point where there is a major change in how she gets uptime without mobility. obvs her sustain isn’t compensating either and neither did old sustain.
No it wasn’t sym 2.0 didn’t have a ten meter lock on that would be nuts. If I remember correctly it was 7m. Compared to 12m now that’s a pretty huge difference.
This is why I question your time with 2.0 you are clearly inexperienced.
So have a range in which you can kill enemies from close to 15m that’s basically double her old effective range. Orbs are also designed to 1v1 and kill enemies now something the old orbs were not meant to do because of low dps.
The old orbs were designed to support the team. The new ones are meant to frag.
Do you play? Like do you actually play the game? Because your equations really don’t apply when you bring in human error. You have to remember our opponents aren’t perfect.
And you thinking almost doubling the range of primary and doubling the projectile speed and charge time isn’t going to change the effective range of a hero is possibly the worst take I have ever heard you write down. Like that’s actually garbage logic that would only come about if you are just arguing to make the opposite point without even thinking about what you are saying.
Dude come on…
No it was like 8m attach, 10m detach. 5~7m was sym 1.0 or so.
It really did not make meaningful difference as shown by how the conditions of use did not change much i.e. still needs escorting or a massive distraction to get in range and stay in range to meaningfully use it.
does adding like 4m on widow’s falloff start range make much of a difference? no because it’s already really long to the point that she’s in effective range in most angles and sniper spots already. similar logic here. the extra 2~4m literally didn’t meaningfully change her usage conditions.
First off, you clearly didn’t understand that calcs at all. it’s not “close to 15m” at all.
the quoted calcs did it in terms of splash radius + projectile radius. but you obviously missed the caveat of the 120 damage from orbs is split evenly between direct and splash (i.e. projectile itself deals 60, and splash does 60, so direct totals to 120 but splash is 60 at most and radially decays to like ~20 depending how far the target is from the impact point).
i.e. only landing splash is equivalent to falloff damage of hitscans already.
yet the calcs show that you can practically ensure you don’t receive direct damage even in 15m, let alone longer ranges
the range where you can start to practically ensure you can dodge direct shots if you use those equations is approx. 8.522727273m.
Secondly, being “double her old effective range” for orbs means very little when old orbs had really tiny effective range. like 2x0 = 0. and 2 x <insert small number> = <another small number>. The fact is, the proj speed increase simply isn’t significant enough to make their effective range meaningfully enough when looking at the conditions for uptime when there’s 0 mobility. i.e. still stuck outside of their effective range for a similar large portion of the game when without mobility.
BIH they’re low dps now still. old dps on orbs were literally low class trash and right now they’re mid class trash.
old orbs dps: 125 damage / (2s charge up + 0.25s wind down) ~ 55.56dps
current orbs dps: 120 damage / (1s charge up + 0.25s wind down) = 96dps < bodyshotting mercy pistol of 100dps (of which is defs more consistent to land from higher firerate and 50m/s)
and you obvs can’t argue the “they’re burst damage weapon fire so low dps is a given” route of saying “orbs are a good damage weapon fire now” because of how inconsistent it is to land directs as shown above.
no, old orbs were simply designed poorly.
- they were bad as an aimed weapon fire obvs because of how slow they moved giving huge leniency to dodge them
- they’re bad as spam because of really low firerate making it so you can’t actually spam it and having low dps
- they’re bad at zoning because of the projectiles don’t achieve much area coverage nor did they have the threat effect of hitscans (i.e. so consistent from just los that it demands targets to take cover)
- doesn’t have lingering mechanics like junkrat bombs or bounce mechanics like junkat bomb or moira orb to occupy target’s area longer
- too low firerate making it unable to “build up” area coverage with multiple shots
- projectile size not being long so it wouldn’t be occupying a line/“lane” of area long through slow linear speed (this is how hanzo’s ult zones, being slow isn’t enough but to also have the projectile be long is how it occupies a large enough space to compensate and work with the slow speed; otherwise it can easily and quickly be side stepped and the target can just not care)
- those are all the directions a damaging projectile weapon fire can take and it’s bad at all of them. and worst off, the orb pierce makes it so that if you try to number the orbs so that it’s decent in any 1 of the above directions, it easily becomes oppressive because only dva DM could “block” them back then.
and the thing is, aside from that limiting orb pierce factor, sym3.0 rework didn’t change the above characteristics/problems about orbs.
the “Dodgeable Direct Range you get approx. 8.522727273m” that was calc’ed used an assumed reaction time of 0.25s which is from Human Benchmark .
when you need like $20 to buy something you want but you have like $1 and then you managed to double your balance once to $2, do you have enough money to pay for the thing you want? rhetorical q, answer’s obvs no.
Again I don’t care if either version is weak or not that doesn’t matter the work you can get with the character will just determine what mmr you will end up at. The thing is they just play very differently. Which you can see by them having different effective range max hp different utility. You think that they play the same is the issue I have it makes me think you are a beginner with one of them
The easiest thing to look at is the gun they don’t have the same gun at all anyone can clearly see that. New range damage values and utility on both aspects of the weapon
You thinking that both iterations play the same is what’s stupid here. That really can only be brought down to one thing you not having experience playing one of the characters
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how the hell did you miss the point that the changes didn’t meaningfully change how the 2 kits (when without mobility) got uptime and how they spent downtime for most of the match time in terms of gameplay?
Your view is wrong though you don’t understand the kits which is the issue here. How can I trust your idea of what good uptime and downtime is when you have barely any understanding of how to apply syms old kit
I get the impression you never learned sym 2.0 in any meaningful way so I don’t accept your ideas of her uptime and downtime. You don’t have the skill needed to make those calls
Your reasoning completely relies on the fact that you know how to play sym 2.0 and that your interpretation of those clips is correct. I don’t believe that to be the case though
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Till this day I can’t believe that OwU actually wrote a thesis essay about Symmetra…
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I literally showed you all the numbers and numerical proofs. you refusing to believe in the kit numbers nor the hard logic and facts the come from that is a you issue.
have you presented how different your “interpretation” of what was happening in the clips? no.
have you even presented what your “interpretation” of what was happening in the clips? no.
heck you barely even ackowledge what’s even happening in the clips. why? because you know that it legit wouldn’t be different.
they couldn’t advance further up or go further into enemy territory without either a team escort or a massive distraction irrespective of old barrier and shield gen because it’d be suicide to do so. why? because insufficient tools in her old kit.
I’m saying the clips you brought are useless. They don’t matter there are thousands of games. And any clip you bring doesn’t really reflect the big picture. You could have just found one on someone’s off day or where the enemy is feeding. I don’t even really trust your interpretations of the clips.
I did actually give you an interpretation at one point. Maybe not this thread but it looked like good gameplay on Hollywood sym stopped any potential recontest. But there is no point in it because it’s just one map. Against one team comp. there is so much more variability in this game that a couple games will never be able to capture
What’s only important is the thought process behind the character. How the tools they have are applicable and the creative ways that they can be used. This is what you severely lack in syms old kit. You don’t understand the tools or where they shine.
I have been asking questions to gauge your skill on the old character and you really haven’t been that good. You didn’t even get close to the right range on her primary which was the biggest eye opener. Like if you main any character for a decent amount of time wouldn’t that be the first thing you would memorize. Especially one that hasn’t changed at all. You don’t have any personal strats or see where you could try out new things. I’m just trying to understand you and all that makes sense right now is that you didn’t have much playtime on 2.0 or that you had a lot of playtime on 2.0 but didn’t really get far with her.
It just makes me question why you want to compare them so hard? Why are you trying to prove they are essentially the same with minimal changes. The only big similarity when tp is down is low mobility. Yet thats only when tp is down the rest is very different. It is also typical for sym 3.0 to move very differently when tp is down because they want to move to a spot for their next tp
yet the most general you can get is looking at kit numbers in context of other heroes and the resulting gameplay from such kit numbers and it still contradicts all your claims and arguments as shown above. 
your claim “omg they doubled X numbers so therefore they must have changed something drastic in gameplay” is simply proven wrong as I directly showed you “doubling barely anything still gets you barely anything and thus didn’t change the overall uptime conditions and actions in down time —> i.e. overall gameplay”.
hence the analogy:
of which was had enabled by the team for the sym to even get the opportunity to do so. of which is my point about the conditions of uptime.
what do you mean “why I want to compare them so hard”? the point of contention is simply the truth behind the claim that “the sym 3.0 rework replaced the hero completely”. this is literally starting a debate with someone then going back to them “why do you want to talk about this so much?” like bih why did you even reply if you don’t want to talk about it?
and you’re not even understanding the premise of my logic here. I’m comparing old sym vs sym3.0 played as if tp didn’t exist in her kit, not simply as if tp was temporarily on cd.
You did a great text, EXCEPT on “part IV”.
First I know that Symmetra is autistic, in fact I had to check for that, which is actually true. Therefore her autism is irrelevant to any reasons to dislike Symmetra; perhaps it is just you, who may let people know you are autistic and trolls mock you for that.
And her dark skin is not a relevant reason to dislike Symmetra either: the only related reason is the frustration of some players who want a black woman as a Hero for Overwatch and do not content themselves with Symmetra because she would not be “black enough” (not enough curly hair, not large enough nose, not thick enough lips, not having a “though voice” pff so stereotypical), although Symmetra is blacker than plenty of black people out there. Your “darskin Asian woman” is nothing but an euphemism for “Symmetra IS a Black woman”. Accept that once and for all!
I want to understand your perspective which is the reason I talk to anyone especially one that comes to the conclusion of something I find very different.
7M attach, 12 M break
no way. I distinctly remember the initial 3.0 primary range was the same as the old detach range.
That was impossible plz look that up because if 2.0s detach range was 12 meters that would be insane.
If anything I thought she had an extra meter of leeway