2-2-2 Ended it all

ArrowsAero-2544 · July 12, 2021, 11:28am

Bruh, what you got against goats?

DrDangerRuss-2439 · July 12, 2021, 11:51am

Megadodo:

DrDangerRuss:

ƕlĸ:

DrDangerRuss:

Unfortunately, your statement was phrased as a statement, not an opinion.

You appear to be unaware but the abbreviation IMO means “in my opinion”. Thus the statement was phrased as an opinion, not a statement of fact.

Your statement that role queue “increased the average quality of games” is a statement of opinion yet it is phrased as if it is a fact.

Removal of many team compositions is a negative in my opinion as it removes variety and a change of pace and style from one game to the next.

It removes strategic depth and replaces it with spoonfed structure.

DrDangerRuss:

Could you please qualify the extremity of “many many many players who prefer role-less queue” with evidence, as i think we both know very well that such evidence does not exist?

One could look at any of the many threads on the topic including this one where many participants have expressed that opinion.

DrDangerRuss:

While i do enjoy it when people intentionally misunderstand words such as “unsupported”, it is a little tedious. Unsupported means the devs are not investing time in it specifically and are just letting it sit there ignored.

Fortunately open queue is not ignored.

It has received priority queue support in the case of leavers.

It has also received cross-play support.

In order for it to exist it must be supported in multiple ways many of which you have brought up yourself previously in my threads that in the past you followed me around in regards to this topic. In fact this was part of your justification for opposing it.

The Case For The Removal Of Role Queue

How are competitive points distributed?

How does this affect the SR system? How do the devs maintain 2 completely separate SR systems at the same time? How is that affected by analytics?

How does this affect level design? Systems design? Social design?

DrDangerRuss:

Various balance changes and other systems (such as tickets) have been focused around 222, while OQ has received nothing. Why is this not true?

A broken system needs fixes whereas a functional one does not. Unsurprising.

DrDangerRuss:

These are real problems:

No, these are imaginary problems.

Which means they can be addressed by education.

In compositions in which tanks/healers are weak the player should not play them.

The player is expected to swap and/or adapt if the situation is too difficult. Fortunately he is given 32 heroes to choose from to aid in this endeavour.

Games where a player has to tackle the responsibility of their role alone can still occur as the fact that a player is on a role is no guarantee that he will perform the stated duties

The feeling of being forced can be tackled by emphasising that the player is not forced, that other compositions can work perfectly fine and if this is not the case the game should be designed in this way with the most popular role heavily featured in any composition.

Throwing is a reportable offence. A ban solves this.

You may also get something worse in RQ where you have two players who only know how to play Reinhardt in the tank role. They might know how to play several of the damage characters but they are prevented from being able to play them. Hence you are left with a similar if not worse dilemma.

MrNegotiator:

We’re not gonna repeat this discussion

But you’re going to pretend that “Allowing players to choose their preferred mode” is a design failure.

MrNegotiator:

In Overwatch though, it has been an absolute failure, so much though that the devs got completely rid of it for months.

MrNegotiator:

Unless there has been any news in the meantime, their stance on the matter officially is that, and I (roughly) quote: “It is possible that Competitive Open Queue may not return in Overwatch 2”.

This is not a “quote”. That is not how a quote works.

MrNegotiator:

Do you perhaps have any more info on this survey? What questions did it contain in general?

At this time I seek more information.

I am not aware of the questions that were asked in the detailed survey.

I imagine it was to do with impressions of OW2.

I believe MegaDodo can answer his/her posts and doesnt need your protection.

I don’t see any of Hulxs statements as “protection” of any kind, but I thought he answered your statements well…and that aside, he (or any forum member) is free to do so.

These threads are quite simply not two person chats

Any game developer would know that

If you wish to ask me any questions about game development, please do. I will answer them with the knowledge and expertise of a 20 year veteran Please note, the complexities of video game forum etiquette is not required for game design.

Excellent, if you dont need protection then i’m sure you’re fine with answering my questions, right?

DrDangerRuss:

Unfortunately, your statement was phrased as a statement, not an opinion. My statement is objectively true and mathematically provable (as i have repeatedly shown you). Why is that not true?

Could you please qualify the extremity of “many many many players who prefer role-less queue” with evidence, as i think we both know very well that such evidence does not exist?

While i do enjoy it when people intentionally misunderstand words such as “unsupported”, it is a little tedious. Unsupported means the devs are not investing time in it specifically and are just letting it sit there ignored. Various balance changes and other systems (such as tickets) have been focused around 222, while OQ has received nothing. Why is this not true?

Stating a problem is not a problem is a very lazy way to dismiss arguments you dont have the ability to respond to.

Copy/pasta:

These are real problems:

Tanks/healers do not need to be balanced for 1/4/1 AND 3/3 with locked 222.

222 removed really bad quality solo healer/tank games.

QPC means people feel forced to pick tanks/healers when they didnt want to and didnt choose to beforehand.

222 removed many of the old “i can tell we’re gonna lose before we even left spawn” games where 4 people all decided to throw because they couldnt all pick Genji.

Also, previous questions you’ve failed to answer:

What is your full list of issues with 222?

Why do you think the devs would destroy their game for the sake of OWL?

Can you show us the evidence you claimed to have that blizzard is growing tired of 122 and 222 queueing methods?

Why are ingame stats like gold healing meaningful?

I eagerly await your failure to address any of these questions, as you have done so so many times in the past

DrDangerRuss-2439 · July 12, 2021, 11:59am

Hyphen:

DrDangerRuss:

222 RQ is a subset of RQ, as i repeatedly stated. And yes, 222 can also be chosen when playing OQ. That’s irrelevant since we were comparing 5v5 RQ to 222 RQ (both being a subset of RQ). A set is a group of things. A subset is set that is part of a larger set. Your definition is wrong.

Dude its getting really weird at this point that I mention X and you start replying about Z.
Read.Properly.

I didnt say “222 RQ is not a subset of RQ”, never. You can CTRL+F in my post, you will NEVER find that sentence. Ever. Not in any of my posts in the forum so stop replying to things I’ve never said.
222 existed before, during and after RQ and does NOT require participation, sync, complicity or ANY kind of relationship to RQ to exist. That happens the other way around too.
You are plain wrong and again, like I pointed out, you are just running around changing keywords because I refuted you plenty of times and you dont have a point.

Stop.

DrDangerRuss:

I actually missed the part where you mentioned OW2 beta, as i’ve yet to see any information on it, can you provide some?

Look for the OW2 beta gameplay and interviews during Blizzcon. Thats your job mate, not mine.

DrDangerRuss:

No, 222 is not the template for LFG. LFG is a system that helps you find groups, and does not force you to pick any specific team comp and therefore does not fix anything aside from helping you find a group.

Here you prove your lack of knowledge since it actually was a template you could use and NO, those dudes “locked” in a specific role could NOT change roles.
It is, it was, and it will be ( again facts are not changing ) an LFG template.

And yes, it fixes or solves the same main issue RQ solves:
Well … at least we dont have 4-5 DPS.

Because it PREVENTS people from switching roles and searches a match with a group that is fixed on a specific setting, in this case 222.
How.do.you.not.know.this?

Since you are just repeating the same things ad nauseam and switching words to answer to things Ive never said, this ends here

Yes, 222 existed before RQ. Blizzard decided to make 222 RQ. Next, they are modifying existing RQ to be 5v5, thus RQ is successfully being moved forward to OW2. The Superset of RQ is carrying on.

I apologise if you’ve become confused by this topic, even though i have endeavoured to be clear, things seem to have taken a slide down the angry pole into the world.of.full.stops.and.bold.

I looked for the information you said existed about first come first serve on OW2 and could not find any, which is why i asked you to provide it. Unfortunately you cannot, but hopefully someone else can?

The locked 222 structure for all teams does not exist in LFG currently. If players can use the current “make your own team role comp” LFG setup, LFG would not fix anything. Your suggestion also does not solve a thing for people who dont use LFG. LFG currently does not and cannot fix anything apart from helping players to find a group.

Knighthood-21706 · July 12, 2021, 12:23pm

You are in complete denial about Role Q fixing a lot of issues for other players.

You refuse to acknowledge the improvements for those players and whenever someone says “It made the game better for me” you respond with your generic “not at all”.

So far all that ever came out of it was you getting into pointless arguments with other people that are going around in endless circles because your “not at all” is sabotaging any attempt to find a common ground on which you can base a constructive discussion.

2/2/2 Role Q made the game a lot more enjoyable for a huge part of the player base.
If you want to have a healthy discussion about Role Q then you won’t get around acknowledging this, cause responding to those people with “not at all” won’t make them magically disappear.

ƕlĸ-2818 · July 12, 2021, 12:34pm

They produce excellent milk. I have no idea why anyone would be against goats.

MrNegotiator-2325 · July 13, 2021, 7:56am

I’m not against player choice, up until it becomes a burden to the game’s actual quality, in which case I consider it at least partly as collateral damage in the quest of repairing said game.

Not in any way a misinterpretation on my part, but I do get where you’re coming from.

FizzyMilk-21367 · July 13, 2021, 7:57am

I honestly don’t think i’ve ever encountered a bug in overwatch before. it’s one of the most polished and optimised games i’ve ever played

kyttie-11584 · July 13, 2021, 8:26am

If this makes you depressed then you need a hobby. If it doesn’t then don’t say it does because there are people who are legitimately depressed and we shouldn’t devalue the term. TYVM

ƕlĸ-2818 · July 13, 2021, 8:30am

Please provide an actual developer quote. Otherwise yes it is a misrepresentation.

Knighthood-21706 · July 13, 2021, 3:06pm

It’s in the AMA.
Just go through it yourself if you are really interested

Destrolock-2131 · July 13, 2021, 3:18pm

Dps main here, i play 1 game of open queue for each 2000 role Q game…
And it always instantly reminds me of why i play role Q.

It might be different in master + but in plat insta lock dps/sup or play tank.
Or have a flame fiesta who shall tank or who’s fault it is for the guarantee lose

Role Q actually allows me to play dps and not throw the game on hero select…
Especially yes especially as a widow player…

Silawatsi-1430 · July 13, 2021, 4:15pm

Ana is far from an exception, and in the long run she broke the game in ways Launch Brig and Moth Mercy could only dream of…

Before Ana came out, multi-tank comps like GOATS were unfeasible - they require burst healing at regular intervals in order to work, but none of the OG supports could provide it. They only have sustain healing in their base kits - if they wanted to bring a teammate back from the brink of death, they’d have to resort to using their ultimate.

Then Ana and her bionade came along. The massive healing creep that she introduced into the game enabled tank-stacking comps for the first time…

…and instead of addressing the root of the issue - which was their mistake of giving a healer the equivalent of a defensive ultimate as a cooldown ability - the devs made things exponentially worse by going after the symptoms of the problem. They nerfed tanks into the ground and ramped up dps creep to the point where no one wants to play tank anymore.

kongajinken-1805 · July 13, 2021, 4:43pm

It all started with Ana.

Blizzards tried to make healers heal upwards of 140 hps without even trying created a healer power creep which resulted in Brigitte, but Brigitte wasn’t the start, she was the end result of what came before her.

They should have nerfed Ana to Mercy/Zen/Lucio levels instead of trying to force in more and more OP supports. Instead they opted to buff all OG supports to Ana’s level and make her the base line.

Moira-21906 · July 13, 2021, 5:23pm

Well I don’t agree with healing powercreep because moira has one of the best healing, but she’s the worst support in the game

ƕlĸ-2818 · July 13, 2021, 5:24pm

I already know what the actual quote is. Which is why I called it a misrep.

kongajinken-1805 · July 13, 2021, 5:35pm

She’s only better by a marginal amount, other healers heal comparative to her. That’s the problem. Healing is too high.

Moira-21906 · July 13, 2021, 5:40pm

No healing is instant though like a lot of damage

wait unless baptiste? apart from him nobody else everyone else takes 1 second to do the full amount

healing is not what is making supports good

kongajinken-1805 · July 13, 2021, 5:42pm

Here’s the kicker, burst is worse now than its ever been, most heroes are functionally stronger than they were several years ago. It all started with Ana forcing the OG supports healing to rise, symmetra was kicked out for not healing, and dps were forced to pump out more damage to kill things at Ana’s level of healing.

I wish it was, but when all OG supports are off suports and all new supports are main supports, and the reason for this is OG supports don’t heal enough. This doesn’t strike you as healing creep?

Moira-21906 · July 13, 2021, 5:43pm

disagree otherwise we’d have moira ever game, it’s their too strong utility dude…

kongajinken-1805 · July 13, 2021, 5:44pm

Moira is the highest healing, but healing is still higher than 50 hps max like it used to be. Just because Moira isn’t top of the line doesn’t mean healing creep hasn’t destroyed support balance.