Why does no one take varian lion fang talents?

General Discussion
1

Even after his level 1 got buffed no one takes them.

The level 7 one has even lower popularity I don’t think I’ve even seen it before

EDIT:
I just crunched the numbers on his level 7 healing talent (the talent that gives 50% bonus healing to lion fang per hero hit):

IT’S SO BAD

Lionheart gives 70 bonus healing PER hero hit.
Victory rush gives 350 healing every 30 seconds, cooldown reduced by 10 seconds every minion or monster death.

Assuming ZERO cooldown reduction on victory rush, you still need to hit FIVE heroes every 30 seconds with lion fang to get the same value as victory rush. Lion fang has a 8 second cooldown. Realistically you can only cast it about 3 times in 30 seconds even if you spam it (walking into position to cast it takes time and enemy heroes won’t always be available for you to cast it on). So you have to hit 5 heroes with your 3 casts every 30 seconds.

This means that, even ASSUMING 0 cooldown reduction on victory rush, lionheart talent is so bad that it is just barely on par with victory rush. In other words, the most optimal usage of the lionheart talent is just barely equivalent to the poorest usage of victory rush.

Now consider the following:

  1. When there is a pause in the middle of the fight while both teams regroup (which is very common), victory rush is still cooling down. Meanwhile, lionheart talent is getting 0 value because there are no heroes to hit at the moment (so you can’t hit your 5 hero quota every 30 seconds to be on par with victory rush)

  2. When varian retreats because he is low, victory rush is still cooling down for the next burst heal. Lionheart is getting 0 value (so you can’t hit your 5 hero quota every 30 seconds to be on par with victory rush)

  3. Sometimes, hitting lined up minions will give more healing than hitting heroes. Doing so gives 0 value from lionheart (and makes it so you can’t hit the 5 hero quota every 30 seconds)

  4. Victory rush has a higher burst amount of healing which is far more valuable

  5. Victory rush gets you value outside of fights. Lionheart actually gives 0 value outside of fights

  6. And of course the biggest nail in the coffin, victory rush actually gets 10 second cd reduction per monster/minion (and almost every map you can benefit from this heavily even while fighting over the objective)

To make it fair, there is one thing bad about victory rush compared to lion fang which is that it can’t be controlled, so sometimes, you will waste it to heal only a little bit of hp and the usage may not always be optimal. But the thing is, THE SAME ISSUE EXISTS for lion fang. Lion fang is often used for its slow even when you may not need its healing. In that case, it also gets very little value from the lionheart talent at level 7.

Sometimes, just crunching the numbers alone makes you wonder if blizzard intentionally sets noob traps for people to pick without using their brains. I feel like I’m missing something. That talent can’t be this bad. Can someone enlighten me please?

Even ignoring the cooldown reduction aspect of victory rush, just the fact that lionheart gives 0 value outside of fights means it has to give far greater value in fights to be comparable to victory rush. Since victory rush healing (WITHOUT cooldown reduction) is comparable to hitting 5 heroes with lion fang, you probably need to hit about 10 heroes every 30 seconds with lion fang in fights to make up for the fact that lionheart has no value outside of fights. So the question you need to ask yourself is:
ARE YOU HITTING 10 HEROES WITH YOUR 3 CASTS OF LION FANG EVERY 30 SECONDS? If you are not, then victory rush is probably the better talent regardless of map, regardless of team comp, regardless of anything

I mean, how are the talents even comparable?? (sorry to the people in this thread who already said they take the lion fang talent at level 7. Don’t intend to be mean to you :p)

3 Likes
2

Really? lvl 7 is go-to Taunt talent, lvl 1 sometimes instead of Overpower (when I dont plan to take Shield Wall).

Dont tell me Taunts take lvl 1 quest :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes
3

I take lions fang if im tanking and the level 7 heal upgrade. Good burst heals if you hit multiple enemies

2 Likes
4

The only way I play Varian is w/ taunt, and the only talents I take are Lion fang talents, don’t @ me

2 Likes
5

Really? Lion maw is taunt and CS best level1 talent.
The peel and the damage are no joke, better than nerfed quest.
Level 7 depends whether or not you have a healer and how many melee you face.

4 Likes
6

i think he means High King’s by quest

Also the 1/7 Q both can get value when youre retreating or peeling clumps. Tbh… i often go for second wind as taunt lmao dont @ me

7

I do because outside of the Punisher Map, Dragon Shrine, and… I think that’s all, Second Wind is the only viable survivability option that Varian has at objectives.

And Quest helps with that. As a tank–I want to stay alive.
If I am a second tank, or feel like the enemy team has low burst and we have good healing, I either of the other level 1 talents, depending on compositions.

No lol. At least, it is a terrible option for Taunt Varian.
It’s a joke compared to the healing that second wind gives you, and it’s extra burst healing is pathetic compared to what Victory Rush gives you.
(Funnily enough, Victory Rush gives you the same amount of hp per activation as Lionheart does bonus healing if you hit 5 enemy heroes).

I would say that, for the healing it offers, even if you made it give 1 second CDR for each enemy hero hit, it would still be a worse survivability option than Second Wind. Might make it better than Victory Rush, on maps where Victory Rush is already worse than Second Wind.

I would say it is, relative to the other choices on a talents tier, the worst talent in the game. Here is a wall of math:

Unless you’re consistently hitting 4+ heroes and casting the millisecond it is off cooldown, the bonus is worth less than one attack per second with second wins… when above 50% hp.

To normalize at level 30 (varian’s Scaling is now 4%, so these percentages apply at all levels).

Second wind 51%+ hp: 89 damage/ attack, optimally 111 health per second (1.25 attacks per second)
Lion heart: 227.5 extra healing per hero hit, 8 seconds cooldown = 28.5 health per hero hit per second.

Second wind below 50% hp no Kings Quest: 209 hp per attack, optimally 261 health per second.

So if you:
1. Always hit 5 heroes with lions fang
2. Miss every other chance to attack
3. are under 50% hp

You’re looking at Lionheart giving you ~ 142hp/second. And second wind ~130 hp/second.

Lionheart is a trash talent. Probably the worst talent in the game, relative to the other choices on it’s tier.

And if you go Kings Quest + Second wind… you’re look at 249/attack → 311.25

You literally can miss every other chance to attack and still heal for more than the best case with Lionheart when you’re under half HP.

The only situation I can think that it is better is:

  1. you had a little below max HP, and just triggered victory rush for bad value.
  2. the enemy immediently comes to kill you, and has enough damage to burst you down.
  3. the extra ~13% HP that hitting 5 enemy heroes gives you was enough to stay alive.

Even on Col. Smash Varian… where it is most Viable, it’s only usage case would be against burst…

You heal ~302 damage/attack when under 50% HP
Lionheart heals still only ~145 optimally, BUT it is burst healing, and Col. Smash has the most weakness to being bursted, due to lowering of HP.

And if you’re going Col. Smash you’re probably not fighting that often around minions, so victory rush is bad.

So Lionheart is least bad on Colossus Smash Varian.

I still think that Second Wind will typically be better, and on maps with Objectives near waves or that trigger Victory Rush, Victory Rush is best for Col. Smash.

3 Likes
8

The level 1 Q quest is best talent for colossus. It’s all about burst + making sure you and your allies get to hit the target. The level 7 Q is just awful all around. It’s low healing, only from heroes and it doesn’t have synergy you can get from second wind (with boosts on health, AA and vulnerability on enemy).

2 Likes
9

For Taunt Varian:
Benefit of Q is that you can heal on range, on demand and slow the enemies at the same time. 50% non-decaying slow for 2 seconds is quite underestimated.

You cant compare lvl 7 Q talent to Victory rush. If you dont go Q on lvl 1, lvl 7 is bad. With done lvl 1 Q quest, it is quite good. Problem with Victory Rush is that you cant turn it off to have it available when you need to use it. And it can proc off when you down 10 HP, efectivelly wasting the whole healing value of it.

Second wind sounds good but most of the times you charge and taunt, doing like 2-3 attacks. Which is 3% your max HP?
Im lazy to do the math, but I would still take the bonus on the “burst” healing from Q than the heal on AA.

2 Likes
10

Lionheart is better than victory rush for taunt because you have no control of when it will proc.
If it was a purely activable it would be a so much better ability.
Lionheart is not so bad because it gives you the most controlled burst healing of the three but it only affect healing on heroes Q cd can feel like an eternity for varian.

Second wind is appealing if you can stay on target for a long time and helps get some health back while hitting some pve target.

Problem with lionheart is that varian has no way to get some cdr on Q so you really have to land it well for it to count else you are in serious trouble.

2 Likes
11

Lionhart is a skillshot. Its very small and you need to hit multiple, so you need to get a good angle. And it already heals. An extra heal cant hurt.
2nd wind is better and on most maps with lots of minions. Even on dragon shire and sky temple im going victory. I always go victory on infernal and tomb (with taunt / coloss )
Trust me lvl 43 varian here. 2nd most played hero

12

yeah, a shame no one did any math earlier.

Anyhow, Lionheart gives you a bonus ~2.5% of your HP per enemy hero hit in bonus healing.
when under 50% HP, HKQ+second Wind on taunt spec heals you ~2.8% per attack.
W/out HKQ, it is ~2.3% per hit when under 50% HP.

Are you doing no attacks after the initial taunt? Do you charge in taunt, than leave?

Victory Rush would be taken wit taunt only on maps where the objective summons Monsters. Which is pretty much just Punisher map.
Probably also okay on Dragon Shrine.
Now that Harbringer says it, it does also make sense of Tomb, given there are almost always minions closeby.

It is viable as the best option in those situations.

Lionheart is never the best option on taunt.

I did the math earlier and using the numbers I got in some more math where you only attack “every other chance” (aka once every 1.6 seconds, instead of .8 seconds (Varian’s attack speed):
-when above 50% HP you need to hit ~2 heroes with Lion’s Fang (assuming instant casting it whenever off CD) to do equal healing.
-When below 50% health you need to hit ~4.5 heroes on average with Lion’s Fang to keep up in healing.
-When below 50% health with Kings Quest, you need to hit ~5.5 heroes on average with Lion’s fang to keep up in healing.

If you can stick on a target, it becomes absurd (1 attack a second):
-when above 50% HP you need to hit ~3.1 heroes per cast with Lion’s Fang to keep up
-Below 50% HP you need to hit ~7 heroes per cast of Lion’s Fang to keep up
-below 50% HP with king’s quest you need to hit ~9 heroes per cast of Lion’s Fang to keep up.

Having played Varian in 127 games, and mostly taunt Varian, I think getting 1 attack a second is perfectly viable, and my max HP with taunt isn’t so low that hovering around 50% HP is uncomfortable.

Even if the other team can generate 12 units to target (i believe that is the max possible (TLV+Samuro+Aba cloning Samruo+Rexxar+5th)) I don’t think that hitting 9, or even “just” 7 heroes with Lion’s Fang every cast without any time inbetween casts is reasonable.

1 Like
13

From personnal experience which i agree do not amount to much , ennemies do not let me AA their face for long periods of time unless they flee because we got a good taunt delete moment at which point the 7 row talent is less relevant.

VR is unreliable, it either is great when i get jumped on early and i proc it with mid low health but mostly procs too soon if i manage to zone well and avoid lots of damage which makes me feels penalized for actually playing well.

In average i get more burst and sizable healing from landing lionhearted Q.
The main reason i pick second wind is as i play mostly QM i am paired with few healer and healing with pve makes me more self sufficient.
In ranked i would pick lionheart way more often unless my healer proved to be so lacking before level 7 that i’d rather like i have none.
The moment lionheart would also give extra healing for pve targets i would pick it almost everytime.

14

that is why it is only considered viable on the maps where there are minions/monsters at the objective.

Punisher Shrine: monsters are the objective, triggering the cooldown of VR tons.
Dragon Shrine: objective is all around minions, so fighting is around minions and VR can trigger easily multiple times.
Spider Queen: there is very little space outside of lanes, so lots of minions, same as Dragon Shrine.

It is a limited sample (because hotslogs data is all gone) but you seem to be 0 for 3 with Lionheart per heroesprofile, and 2 for 4 with second wind.

But that is a very small sample, and I’m sure you’ve got more Varian games than 10!

But it is also the least picked talent per heroesprofile in Diamond/Master and combinations of them and also the worst talent by winrate.
There is a reason for that.

And I imagine a decent chunk of those Lionheart games are when people are going Col. Smash, which is when it is at it’s most powerful, healing ~3.7% of total HP Varian has when using that ult.
Although with HKQ and second wind under 50%… you heal ~5.9% of your HP per attack. So if you hit 3 heroes with Lionheart, it would take only 2 attacks to heal more with second wind.
Of course, Col Smash is vulnerable to being burst, so the healing being in burst is more useful, especially as it is stays as a high % without being under 50% HP.

Keep using it if it feels good for you.

Just, unless you can show me some scenario where it actually give you more healing in a way which is meaningful, I’m going to keep going right back to the math.

1 Like
15

How does level 7 lion fang talent even remotely benefit from completing the level 1 quest??

1 Like
16

Ok, I’ll do the math.
Varian has 2112 HP, Q deals 150 damage and heals for 140 for hero and 35 for creep. Thus hitting an enemy with Q heals Varian for 6.6% of his max HP.
If you hit an enemy with 2 creeps, that is almost 10% of his max HP.

2 heroes = 280 HP = 13.25% max HP
3 creeps = 105 HP = 5% max HP

These numbers are without the lvl 4 talent which gives him 30% max HP. Thus the numbers goes down.

lvl 7 makes the healing from 140 to 210 per hero (10% his max hP) and from 35 to 52 per creep. The ability has 4% scaling just like Varian’s HP.

The Q is not that bad.

17

Does not forgot it doesnt improve the healing

18

Yes, I gave you the numbers with taunt selected, that factored in.

It only improves healing from heroes.
It gives you 70 hp/cast per hero hit baseline.

Taunt+Second Wind gives you ~30 hp/attack baseline, more like 70 if you’re under 50% hp.

Again, When you have Taunt, if you miss half your attacks, and are under half hp, it gets you as much HP with 5 AA w/ SW, versus hitting 5 heroes with Lion’s Heart.

Maybe if the enemy team is Li Li, Cassia, Artanis and a bunch of other blinds.
Otherwise it’s worse than SW on every map.

When is it better by the healing or utility it provides? I’m not seeing you give me any examples.

19

I don’t understand what does level 1 talent choice have to do with anything? It doesn’t buff Q healing, it remains static with quest only increasing damage. The level 7 only buffs the healing portion of the Q. These talents have no synergy with each other in any way as they effect completely different aspects of the ability.

3 Likes
20

I think the lack of synergy is the main problem.

Like Lionnheart now heals for additional 15% of damage dealt doubled vs heroes.