Teach me: Malthael

General Discussion
21

It made him weaker in a Teamfighting aspect and strenghtened his PvE aspect.
I would also say that he is less clunky to play compared to before.

Generally speaking he is weaker tho.

22

I mean did he even really need a rework in the first place? It sounds like it was unecessary.

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23

It was necessary, because TS was mandatory thanks to his limited ways of applying his trait.

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24

Nice Replay. Thank you for sharing. Im curious tho, why did you went on the top lane on Volskaya? Isn’t the solo lane on the bottom on this map.

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25

In my opinion, absolutely not.

He already had issues with build diversity. Before the rework it was his Trait build that was the go-to, mainly because he had very solid baseline single-target damage output but struggled with getting and keeping his Trait out for that effect he was looking for.

There’s a pretty simply calculus when it comes to picking talents: Which talent or combination of talents grants the most increased impact? Basically, it’s just min-maxing.
If you have hero with very well defined strengths in one area but some glaring weaknesses in another, you’re far better off shoring up those weaknesses than trying to improve only slightly upon those strengths.

Malthael’s pre- and post-rework states are both examples of highly min-maxable states.

Pre-rework, his strengths were punishing single-target damage output and impressive staying power, but was merely decent in-lane and was tricky to play, requiring constant management of his Marks. You could only sustain up to 3 Marks at a time baseline.
To account for these weaknesses, Black Harvest was almost a must-pick, increasing Reaper’s Mark’s duration by 50% and allowing Malthael to sustain up to 5 Marks at once. Additionally, Tormented Souls was practically a must-pick due to how it could apply Marks en masse immediately on top of providing additional armor to help Malthael last through the burst damage that would often hit him when he popped it.
Meanwhile, you didn’t really need Last Rites or Die Alone because your AAs could already reliably shred and finish off targets on their own.

Post-rework, Malthael’s strengths and weaknesses have effectively been reversed. He has strong lane and jungle presence and applying Marks is a cake-walk, but to compensate his single-target damage was reduced by between 20 and 25%, depending on your builds, and his durability and general sustain took a pretty big hit.
To compensate for these new weaknesses, Die Alone and Last Rites’ single-target damage output has become almost mandatory, along with Soul Collector’s increased Soul Rip range for kiting and lowered cooldown for more healing and damage.
Tormented Souls just isn’t necessary to apply Marks anymore. Your AA cleave and the increased width on Death Shroud make it largely irrelevant. Why pick an ult that just does something you can already do but only slightly better? And Black Harvest just isn’t worth passing up Die Alone since you can already Mark as many targets can fit in a 170° arc out to 3.25 range in front of you. Juggling Marks is just no longer an issue.

See, his rework was supposed to increase his build and ult diversity, but really all it did was flip around which build and ult was the go-to/must-pick.

So no, from an objective standpoint his rework did not fix his issues, which I would say means it did not help him.
Now, whether you think his rework was bad or not is much more subjective matter.

I, and apparently the majority of former Malthael players if popularity is any indication, no longer enjoy playing him since his rework. His pickrate is currently about half of what it was before the rework, and quite a few people who play him now admit they only started playing him after the rework, which would indicate that more than half of the former Malthael players have stopped playing him since the rework.

I wouldn’t say it made him “less clunky.” It did make him easier to play, but “clunky” denotes that part of his kit felt clumsy, unresponsive, or counter-intuitive, which I disagree with.
“Clunky” would be like the change to Sylvanas’ Q or Hammer’s Siege Mode attacks before her rework.

I would also disagree with him being weaker. He is certainly much weaker at the things he used to be good at, but his winrate is till consistently at, or even above, where it was before the rework.

I mean, he did need a rework, but this rework was poorly thought out and executed.
In fact, in order to balance Malthael’s build viability, they’d actually have to undo the core aspect of the rework, which is his AA cleave. That mechanic alone makes balancing Tormented Souls and his Trait build exceedingly difficult, likely impossible without some serious backbending that would likely cause a plethora of other issues that would need to be worked out.

You know how people have been responding to the Whitemane rework? People have been asking for that for a while, but when it finally came out those same people were like “Yo, wtf? This isn’t what we asked for!” Yeah, that’s how many of us former Malthael players felt about his rework.

Basically this.

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26

https://imgflip.com/i/3b0t2v

If you want to see a devastating Malthael. I added and seen Harbringers Malthael
Thought he was here already

Ow my pic is wuzzy. 75% winrate in SL TL and HL over 72 matches

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27

For me old Malth felt very clunky, because of his inability to properly mark targets. Marking is such a central part of Malthaels Kit that not beeing able to do so hinders his playstyle immensly. Most of his marking was gated behind TS, which resulted in it beeing a must pick. I am not saying current Malth was the best way to go, but it definatly pushed the overall enjoyment of Malthael for me.

I would say old Malth had more carry potential, because his PvE wasn’t bad and he could wreck teamfights with a good Ult.
To achieve a similar result now you have to play much more focused and careful.

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28

He could do it, it just took skill. I wouldn’t call something “clunky” because it required skill, otherwise heroes like Alarak, Maiev, KTZ, or Dehaka would be “clunky.”

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29

For the merc camp.

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30

I made my decision. I will buy Malthael. I LOVE his theme, from his satisfying auto attack sounds to how his design looks sweet. I like his kit too and I definitely think I will enjoy him. I appreciate the feedback from everybody, especially you. You gave me good insight on him and I appreciated all of your feedback. (I’m just waiting to see what Harbinger says though)

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31

Without the use of TS old Malth would mostly be able to stick to the frontline only. The character has a poor mobility outside his wraithstrike (which requires Marking) and his E was not only narrow but is also the slowest skillshot in the game. Not to mention his slow AA’s. Before 16 and Massacre getting more than 2 targets marked outside of his Ult was very lucky and keeping several people marked was even more difficult.
In my eyes Malth had to few and mostly unreliable tools to even make a good teamfighter outside of TS.

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32

Old malth was at good 1v1. I lost with cho against him

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33

Make sure to put a piece of tape over your Q key, it doesn’t really affect his auto attacks. Also you can solo the 4 man camps at level 4 if you’re full health, just make sure to kill the Mage minion first.

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34

Btw he has a few builds and a few talents which are good in certain situations and should be picked there.

Lvl 1:

  • On a Pale Horse is the way to go for double soaking (also helps him with creating merc pressure faster).
  • Fear the Reaper tho is my personal favourite, it gives me surprise burst speed, I can engage and disengage with it, really helpful against Heroes and enemy comps which can bodyblock you.
  • Death’s Reach is niche, probably you are fine without it, but against Heroes like Tracer, Genji, Lunara, who can create space between you and them quickly, really helpful.

Lvl 4:

  • Die Alone is the way to go, it gives you better sololane bully powers, and since most the times that’s your job, you should do it. It also can be triggered with attention or by mere chance in teamfights.
  • Throwing Shade is too niche, but with Final Curtain on lvl 20, it’s a strong obj (like tribute, seed) denier.
  • Black Harvest also helps against Heroes who try to get away from you, plus imo, this is the best talent for BoE, since even if the enemy zones you and your team away, your dmg is still there, for longer, so it helps with the immortal races unlike anything else on that tier.

Lvl 7:

  • Cold Hand is the way to go, it helps you kite, chase, helps your allies if they have Executioner talents, or even if not, a basically permanent slow helps with skillshots as well.
  • Massacre helps with W build, otherwise I wouldn’t pick it, but in W build, it’s great.
  • Touch of Death is good against any kind of predictable burst heal or to help shutdown certain sustained heals (I carried QM games against Butcher with it)

Lvl 10:

  • LR the way to go, a strong finisher and if you can time it right, it can finish that Genji who used his E to escape to Narnia as well.
  • TS if your team has enough dmg (quite common, thanks to the popularity of Assassins in every gamemode) but lacks frontline, or if you went for W build.

Lvl 13:

  • Inevitable End if they have CC you want to avoid (Butch Charge+R, KT’z chainz). (I recommand TS with this, because this tlanet removes your marks, and TS just pops them back.)
  • Soul Siphon if you just want extra heals (mostly from beefy targets).
  • Shroud of Wisdom against spell dmg heavy targets, quite straightforward. Ming, Jaina, Kael, Chromie (I take it even against KT, usually I can dodge his combo with W and Fear the Reaper).
  • Ethereal Existence, same as SoW, if they are AA heavy and you don’t need unstoppable.

Lvl 16:

  • Mortality for W build.
  • Memento Mori for Black Harvest or if the fights are usually really long.
  • Soul Collector otherwise. Increased range on Q, so you can dmg mobile Heores for longer. Good synergy with every Q talent, basically doubling their effect.

Lvl 20:

  • Both Heroic Upgrades are great imo. Angel of Death makes it easier to get full cdr on LR and gives you nice burst heals. Reaper of Souls makes TS infinite and slightly increasing your “numbers of Ws” for W build. (The increase is really low, but it still gives you TS’ sustain help for longer.)
  • Final Curtain is niche, but as I metioned earlier, it helps a lot with most objectives and can be used even for zoning.
  • No One Can Stop Death… It can make you unkillable in theory… But I find it a bit unnecessary (if you’re winning) or not useful enough (if you’re behind). So I personally only take it if I’m dead, we got 20 and if I pick it here and now and use it, we can turn the tides.
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35

Thanks for the build tips, I appreciate it. Also escape to Narnia LOL, I like that.

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36

@anabanana oeh thank you for the compliment. I only knew my overal winrate. Its suprising

I just figgered out how to record my gameplay. Im planning to do a Arthas and Malth 101 one day. But im dependend from the quality of matches. If I do ranked great chance im forced to fill a role. Qm I need to have a good comp.
(Litterly to record just windows key + G :confused: )

I mostly agree with what everyone says. I need to watch the replay above. Maybe I learn something So A few things im not comfortable with myself. But everyone has their own playstyle

I always pick die alone on 4.
Mostly the way teamfights start. Tank tries to go in. Ill put a mark on him and the overal solo lane 1v1 bullying

20 i always go “no one can stop death”
If I think im gonna die. Im going in deep. Do lots of dmg. Then respawn come back to the fight quickly and enemy is hurt vs a fully health malth. This helps us win most of the fights. Because the team continues to skirmish untill im back (if I want it or not)
And usually when someone dies after 20 its gg

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37

Malth’s AAs are laughably weak, to the extent that a few support can deal more damage with their AAs. AA is solely for marking - In 1v1s against other melee solo laners, do not stand there and try to AA them down. Hit em, kite while using Soul Rip, use W to reapply mark, and just keep kiting. If they try to chase you down, you win. If they try to run, you win. If they just avoid you and lane, well, go back to laning yourself, only a few heroes can outlane Malth.

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38

The best tip i can give you and the best one i think can ever be told about him is:
keep Q pressed so it autocasts. Try it, will 100% increase your effectiveness.
Works with lili too.

39

This will eat a crazy amound of your mana. Especially when your in a lane or split pushing.
Sometimes a few AA’s do the trick as well

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40

ya well i meant do it in the cases where you are in a team fight and want to use your brain to dodge skillshots, become unstoppable, time a good W and not time the Q every couple seconds. It also doesnt eat your mana that much tbh.
If you keep it pressed you just achieved a way to make it work like a toggle, which is much more efficient.

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