SL should have 5man prereq to queue - Change My Mind

General Discussion
21

Well if you exclude where I agree with you it’s certainly easy to claim I disagree to disagree. Doesn’t make it true tho and kinda makes it disprovable.

Those can’t just hopp back into SL. And in your other thread, where I “obviously didn’t suggest improvements because I never do that”, I suggested to make it even harder to create Smurfs and use them in SL. I listed ideas on the how.

Doesn’t make it okay to form wrong arguments that debunk themselves and based on fallacies.
Civil conversations require logic. Or I missed again that you just want a small echochamber where everyone agrees with you?
Like if you want a suggeztion to be implemented it’s the minimum to it be logical to do so.

What determines what is best to most if not logic?

Like I can suggest that we should remove coins, because then ppl would only have paper money and that has bigger bank notes on it making ppl richer. But since it’s illogical, it won’t create the desired outcome.

  1. So be it. I’m a QM player now. Okay. Not sure how the mode I’m playing affects my skill lvl but okay.
  2. I can prove I was not boosted by reaching Master first in HL, the soloplayer mode, lol.
  3. Okay, you won’t believe in truth, what a surprise.
    It won’t change the fact that I quitted ranked because I have no time to play much enough to sacrifice all of it on a mode I never liked over the one I do.
  4. Aren’t Boosted players prove that premades don’t make players better?
    Kek

That you’re ignorant? Yea sure. Like you just need to actually look for the stuff you claim I never did but actually I did?
Lol

How am I troll if pick a Hero in Masters thinking it’s good and winning that match?

I usually filled. Played Tank and Healer more than the other roles because I pick what my team needs. (My most played SL Hero is Diablo with 55%+ wr.)
But sometimes I know what we need better than my allies.
Also had games where I wanted to pick something, my allies said don’t, pick that instead, picked that instead and we lost. I felt the other Hero would’ve been better. I know from my experiences.

But why any of this is important on the subject? Like now you just trying to discredit me? Talking about winning Internet Points, lol…

You are an ignorant hypocrite.

Because

  • I might do
  • I care about others
  • I care about this game

So if someone wants to make a not-that-popular mode better, I will inform them that their ideas would have the opposite impact.
Same if they want to remove something from the most popular mode (QM) to make it more like the less popular modes.

^Why do you want to force a choosable option on everybody?
You want to play in premades. Got ya. But you can. So what’s the motivation?
Why ignore that this already existed and ppl didn’t like it? What changed which would make ppl like it?

22

I’m not making arguments, I am presenting ideas…

Bad teammates Reduction vs No Changes, What is better? Obv reduction. Logic YES, but not Absolute logic/Wrong.

You mean the one that used to be based on your QM rating??? I was “diamond 1/Masters” too after alpha/beta/Season1, Rank 1 on my old account. But realistically, I’m a plat player. You know how long it took me to go from D1 to plat back then? 4 seasons. Means nothing anymore.

Sounds like you are afraid of change. Why not make BOTH modes a BETTER experience? You are against progress, change and making the game better? You say stuff like this, count it as a valid point when you said NOTHING.

Word for word, if someone wants to make something better, you will come down to inform them they are wrong… no evidence, no analysis, just wrong lol…

Now we’re talking!

Freedom comes with a cost, that cost is responsibility. We are not responsible players on average, so we need to be shown the proper way. “Forcing” people into 5 mans removes some of the randomness and leads to a more consistent experience, more connections/friendships, which can in return bring in new players if everyone is talking about how awesome the game has become. Rather than let it go stale, wither and die a slow painful death, only kept alive by it’s most die-hard fans, never to shine again.

I always have more fun, learn more, have better wins/losses, make friends that I will play with again, in a 5 man team. Even better if I know and trust these players. Problem is, there is no current way for me to find like minded players with ease. Chat is a troll fest, most decent players already have their groups too, making the time required to find a 5 man long and even after that you could be in queue from anywhere between 2 seconds and 20+ minutes.

So why is the game’s most competitive mode 5v5s so hard for people to access consistently? Because of the random matchmaking and the current culture of the game. I want to change that. I want more tools to find groups, I think that if we had these tools, we could finally do away with random matchmaking and bring about a much better experience to SL players. Just Look at how WoW did it for Mythic Dungeons. You can’t just queue.
Because The players and Blizz devs quickly realized that challenges that require coordination and for players to care, while still offering a fun, challenging and enjoyable experience, is seriously hindered by having getting into it so easily and without knowing anything. This means that dungeons that can be completed by randoms need to be very easy and forgiving, or else people get angry and stop having a good time. So by having to “prove yourself” to get into a group, you WILL be FORCED to get better, to not be a pos, to work at understanding the smaller but yet so important aspects of your hero, the map, the obj, etc… Right now, the game on it’s own, aside from outside guides and sources, does nothing to teach new players how to play properly vs other players and what is good, bad and better or worse.

Then if you are a player that is bad and nobody wants to play with, you will need to make your own group and feel firsthand what his badness and lack of care does to the team when it’s his team and others are complaining and he has to then remove people. Over time this will lead to an increase in overall skill, comms and strategy, even S.O.Ps.

The Culture of Ranked would change, which would then benefit everyone playing. Concepts that most average players don’t even realize are important such as: Macro, Camp/Obj Timings, Strategies, Synergies, the current meta, etc. would all the sudden be well known by all players.

The reason TL was not popular was because of a lack of Group Finder. Making HL the default Ranked option for solo players new to the game. The reason SL is not more popular is because it’s a dreadful experience outside of masters/diamond, and even then… It feels fake and forced, predetermined, it’s a stomp 90% of the time win or lose 2-4 level leads. There is no consistency, rarely a challenge, it’s either too easy or impossibly hard to win. But those 10% of “good” games are rare and few and they tend to happen more often as a 5 stack than as a solo. That is because CONTROL over your team allows for fun. Lack of control leads to Chaos and frustration.

23

How do you want to present ideas if you attack counterpoints but refuse to use logic?
Like ideas need to be changable via logic otherwise you just want to get a “headshot” at first try and get angry and blame others if you don’t (wow, weird pattern is forming).

But correlation =/= causation and I proved via science that just because ppl are forced to form 5men teams it won’t make the allies better.
“But you said bigger control” this control as I mentioned already exists. Since ppl already able to choose their allies.

I was Gold for seasons but started to become good. This I can prove easily.
It’s harder to prove I always reached Masters solo and refused to party up with my high ranked friends in SL before I did so. But I still did that. I reached Masters 2.7k entirely solo.

Still has nothing to do with the topic or discredit anything I say.

Once I reached Masters in HL, SL became a thing. Somewhy it put me with Plats during placements but I reached masters again with ease in that season and fore continous seasons.
It’s not hard for all.

Only because you keep ignoring when I’m asking or agreeing with change to suit your agenda and stay ignorant :'D

You also ignore when I used data and evidence… xD

That’s why the Guild System is needed and why I’m supporting it and asking for it for years. Lol.

Because you don’t join tournaments, the most competitive experience.
And because ppl enjoy this game with the ppl they choose to play or notplay with.

Then ask for those without asking for options to be removed that ppl enjoy.

Forcing ppl into premades is not Group Finding.
If Group Finding exists ppl can just choose to use it or not, depending on their desires and needs.

24

The only thing I’ll add is this entire forum is contrarian/cynical on any new idea. Its like the old saying that if you put a bunch of crabs in a pot you dont need a lid… Because as soon as one of the tries to climb out, the others pull him back down. Well thats this forum. Parts of this game are at rock bottom but any new idea gets shouted down in favor of the status-quo.

The counter-arguments are always 1 of the following:

  1. Player population is too low.
  2. Your idea doesn’t solve 100% of the problem (the ol’ letting ‘perfect’ be the enemy of ‘good’).
  3. Blizz tried that already and everyone hated it.
  4. Problem can be solved by learning to play.

I used to take time to suggest improvements to the game but realized its just shouting in the wind. Here are some previous attempts (notice any familiar faces?) :slight_smile:

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25

I’m not attacking, I’m saying your counterpoints are not actually counterpoints, just opposing assertions.

For example, If I played Devils advocate to my idea of 5 mans only I would counter with a critique of the entire idea, not go point by point to show that they are not true in 100% of potential cases… Something like:

  • “Forcing 5 mans in SL would actually create a BAD culture because it will make the community more elitist and elitism is bad because not everyone should be expected to play at a standard and people should be able to play without being rejected by others for being who they are.”

“science”… You are making a “black and white/all or nothing” and “anecdotal” logical fallacy here, we are not speaking in absolute entities, we are speaking of ranges and overall experience (The grey area). My “argument” is basically even though, in some FRINGE cases, 5man teams might not make the allies better, that overall it would increase performance of the community, making it easier to learn and get better.

Example to illustrate: Let’s say for argument sake that every game you play you can only learn from 1% of that game because of reasons. So your growth of experience is +1. So every game you play, win or lose, you get +1 as a base. Next, Let’s say you are a player that learns 50% of what he/she experiences. You now only learned 0.5% of that 1% because you learn at 50%. Making your climb and your gaining of experience very slow. Even though you learn at 50%. I want to increase that initial 1% to allow players to get better faster. To do that, the game and how it is designed needs to reflect this desire. How do you facilitate learning to achieve a better overall growth in experience? You maximize the maximum potential that the average player can get from the experience. So in forcing 5 mans, yes, not every game will reflect that desire (fringes, data usually ignored because we are not looking for absolutes, but trends and a better experience for the MAJORITY), but overall, and statistically, it will, thus making the game better OVERALL.

Yes, but it is very hard and time consuming to find someone when you want to play, which is why this 5man prereq comes with a manditory group finder and clans/guilds. Path of least resistance to get a game… auto queue, but bad experience, requires no effort from your part, finding or making a group requires effort, that is why the sub-optimal option is taken more than the better option.

I don’t want that known troll S4Y on my team, therefore he would Never make it on my team if I had the option to make my own team with ease. And he might not be a troll (or play) if nobody wanted him on their team… How is that not a good change, even if forced? Smurfing would also be reduced because only the highest rank in 5s will get taken to find a match and then the average MMR difference in teams would be used for how many points you gain/lose. So if a GM queues with a Bronze, they can play, but it’s a bronze game. If the Master Loses, he loses the standard 200 points +/- X and the rest of the team would lose proportionally less points if they lose. But gain up to 500 points if they win, when the master would stay at his 200 +/- x. So you can smurf on a bronze… but you won’t get anywhere or have easier games anymore. And you can still play with your friends regardless of rank.

We agree on this, we’ve moved past it, we are discussing what we DISAGREE and why and how can it be better or worse. So no point in agreeing that we agree.

Agreed as well, which is Why I’d implement the Group Finder, see how that goes, then make the required changes to game modes. If everyone hates the new mode after a full season or 2, change it back. SL was not made that long ago btw… Changes ARE possible. But they need to be explored and discussed and we need to take ideas and attempt to make them better, not just dismiss them without trying as you are doing.

Nailed-it!

Another thing lacking in this game, because of the random matchmaking, in the playerbase, is Sportsmanship. Anonymity does this to people, the lack of repercussions, shame and being ostracized from the community, means it’s free-for-all. Having a bad day? Take it out on teammates by trolling them and hope they rage in chat, because that makes you feel better somehow… Having security in the most competitive game mode is VERY important, specially with a low playerbase. Low playerbase means the bad ones have more effect on you. LoL and DotA have a high playerbase and can get by with having a really bad player (Fringes, see how they are negligible?) once in awhile because they are minimized by more normal players, and you can solo carry in that game, making it way easier to work with them on your team. In HotS, we do not have that luxury, 99% of the time, if you have the worst player on your team, you already lost. Because teamwork is THAT important and everyone has a role to play. It’s not 10-15 minutes of farming trying to not die and deny the enemy gold so you can be stronger late game. People in HotS don’t care if they die early because there are no really bad and NOTICABLE consequences, so that is why new players just stay mid all game to fight… it’s all they know… So if they keep playing in that environment and this mindset, they will never fully grasp the depth of the game. But if you are communicating in a 5 man, that information will become the standard and every player will know (over time) what is expected of them and how to excel at it. Also the REASONS why you do things and not others. Because you will be getting real time feedback… most players do not understand why they lost and do not watch replays.

26

I make this simple for you: me making your idea better is saying to just add the Clan system and nothing else of that forced and elitist part.

27

Why is that now… elaborate… You can’t just say everything else is bad with no reason why… If you are going to say anything of value. Right now you coming here just to say I’m wrong, bringing NOTHING to the table yourself other than… I agree with that one part, but Only because I agreed with this before and it can be done without your main idea… nothing has been discovered, nothing has changed. But you get your imaginary points lol.

Are you even familiar with the “Change My Mind” idea? I’m not asking you to tell me I’m wrong, I want to know WHY I’m wrong or right… and MAYBE, I can show you that You might be wrong on something (If your ego will allow it, on the spot people usually don’t but others who read this will be able to see) and we could actually both learn something or end up having a groundbreaking idea!

But I’m a weird person and don’t think in extremes and want to actually discus and hopefully come up with something that could work and then who knows the possibilities. But these things can’t happen if people just do like you and try and shut down any idea as Kn1ghtmare mentioned.

28

Then you do you, but don’t force that upon everyone else.

29

Why is it that 5s pre req would not be a beneficial thing to add to the game? Nobody cares about your opinion unless you explain why… This is not a “vote if you agree or not” thread. Change my mind!

30

Because I don’t want to wait until 5 of my friends are online to be able to play SL. I should be able to regardless of who is online or not. If you want to play it without 4 teammates, that’s your decision. It is not your decision to require people to play in a party.

2 Likes
31

What if there was a group finder option though? One that made it super simple to get a 5 man? Also, if everyone is a 5 man based on the highest ranked player for matchmaking, finding a game would be near instant as it just matches you to the closest match looking for a game in the same allowed range of MMR (increasing in range every X Time past).

32

Maybe I’m misunderstanding your idea, but wouldn’t this just lead to the majority of groups being made on the fly through chat, which would pretty much be the exact same as a random group being put together?

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33

This is simply not true, just a quick glace through this thread or any on the front page disproves your assertion.

The reasons those arguments often come up is they are fact based. The player population is low. Hot is in maintenance mode. People did hate Team League when they had to group as five.

There is a huge difference between being dismissive of new ideas due to a closed mind, compared to assessing new ideas based in reality, practicality and history. I even agreed with the OP that clans/guilds/communities should not only be added to Hots, but should have always been an integral part of Hots. I also suggested my own ideas on how ranked should be improved, so I’m hardly sitting here saying all is fine as is.

The thing is, how likely is that the OP’s suggestions will happen in the current state of Hots? While this isn’t on the Hots development team, you know Blizzard is in trouble when they can’t even fix a patch loop bug for over 2 months now that is effecting all games on their personal client.

The question remains, would the OP’s idea be an improvement? On the surface it’s a good idea as Hots was designed to be played as a team game. The fact exists that there are no useful community features for people to easily find four other like minded and equally skilled players to group with. History is important here because Team League was the most unpopular mode when it forced players to group as five.

The most popular and common way for Hots to be played is solo. If you force people to play ranked as only five man teams, you risk killing ranked mode. It should also be kept in mind that ranked is the second least popular PVP mode after URD and I don’t think the reason for it’s unpopularity is because players aren’t forced to play only in teams of five.

3 Likes
34

No it’s because of 3 things: The current game culture (barely existing), forming a group of 5 is the hardest and longest way to currently get a game, but also the safest and the kind that has the highest quality matches on average, and lastly, the game doesn’t teach players that this is meant to be a team game.

There should be a serious mode for competitive players, a fun mode, a fast mode and a practice mode, that is it.

  • SL is the competitive mode, therefore it should enforce rules on what creates the best games and the most competitive games alike, aka 5v5s.
  • UR is the practice where you are not trying to play seriously, but it can’t just be SL without a number after you win/lose, because you still get an MMR so it’s literally a copy mode… UR needs to be changed to something like my idea in another thread.
  • ARAM is the fun mode
  • QM is the fast mode.

I actually think they should merge QM and ARAM together. Just make it ARAM, but you pick your hero like QM. UR should be Current SL and Current SL Should become Competitive 5v5s with Guilds/Clans. Like in old WoW Arena and old LoL. With team names, banners and fun stuff like mascots (pets).

If they could implement a WoW-Style Group finder, I believe it would make finding a group easier and we can start shifting the current selfish antisocial culture of this game’s dying population.

35

Your entire post reads as follows: “I want to gatekeep in order for you to enter MY team because I’m tired of low level solo players mucking it up.”

OP, make some friends and group up to play SL. If you can’t make friends…well you already described the kind of person you are.

Making a team from General chat is the same thing as the game randomly grouping you up. It’s the same people. You will have to do the work of essentially interviewing each player that will conform to your playstyle. You want a good team, do the work and find it.

2 Likes
36

Just a few points.

This might surprise you, but many of us find QM not only fast but fun too! It would seem the majority like it as it’s the most played (and has always been) PVP mode.

I disagree that ARAM should be merged with QM. They are both very different modes, for a start ARAM is on specific one lane maps, so these modes can’t be merged without being completely changed. Why completely change the two most popular PVP modes?

So far there is no proof that 5vs5 will result in better matches. One of the reasons Team League wasn’t popular was the complaints that it provided less quality and fair matches compared to Hero League.

As I said previously, I’m not against your ideas, but you’re just asserting “this is better” without any proof, while hand waving away the fact that people didn’t/don’t often team up as 5 man stacks.

I think if Communities and Guilds were added to Hots, people would just start naturally grouping up more without the need to force people into playing only as five.

We already know that when they had this enforced 5 man rule for Team League, it resulted in it being the most unpopular mode in Hots. Ranked is already struggling, your idea could possible kill it.

You are also forgetting that currently people can group 2 ranks apart. If this rule remains in your proposal, it would then still produce rainbow matches where heavy team MMR averaging would have to be used. This is something we already know does not produce “quality” matches. This is something elementary you should have considered when you made your proposal.

Kish never answered my question as to what rank he is. Unless he’s high Diamond and above he is in no position to decide what good or bad players are. This is from someone who is Platinum rank.

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37

Still Team League failed at doing that casue HL existed. And when you had HL you could just que up and have a match. TL you had to spend time and form your own groupe before you could join something less then 10% do these day.

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38

as a solo, I’d estimate my true MMR to be plat 5-1, In 5s, I was diamond for 4 seasons way back then, today, I am still plat in SL. But I’ve played high end games and low end games. But this is not the point of this post.

I do not want to “gatekeep” anyone, but I also don’t want to be thrown to the wolves.

39

It became a point of the post because you made it so.

I can quote more, but I’ll end it there. You promote explicitly that part of the benefits gained from forcing players to play as a group of five is it will get rid of “bad” players and also improve the ability of other players.

This is all supposition and has no more weight if I said “forcing players to play solo will make them better players and no longer bads.”

*It is also noteworthy that you speak of “antisocial” behavior, yet you use this term.

That sounds rather disrespectful to me and again, you seem to feel you are an arbiter of what constitutes a good player vs a poor one. This is a good example why I wouldn’t want a community led council to decide who has the right to play any game mode and who doesn’t.

1 Like
40

I’m not the arbitor… we all are… nobody will be FORCED to play with people they deem undesirables…