Literally no. You don’t need to clarify for me what a bruiser is, I’m well aware of which heroes make up the role, especially considering I’m a bruiser/tank/healer main.
Believe it or not, melee assassins and bruisers are considered flex roles in MM and are not strictly matched. When queuing, and you see “expanding QM parameters”, strictly mirroring the flex role is usually something that is thrown out by the MM.
I’ve been playing ranked and ARAM of late, when I dive back into QM I will screencap examples of where bruisers/melee assassins are not mirrored for both teams.
It is worth noting I’m on the US server. As the population in the EU is larger, players there are less likely to experience the above.
If you want to take that as an insult go ahead. Its just a simple observation.
If you aren’t one of those players, it shouldn’t be an issue should it? I honestly don’t know how any of this is offensive.
Not always. I’ve chosen him in QM and had a tank on my team, so what did they give one side two tanks and the other just one? Nah. I think the matchmaker is probably dynamic enough to be able to search for games needing all 3 roles and just picks the one it can match with quickest. I could be wrong, but it would explain my experiences with Varian not always being matched as a tank.
By doing this you’re taking away what makes Varian special. If he queued as one single role only you’re not allowing players to be able to pick what build they want to play even if they’re lacking a tank. For a hero who’s uniqueness is the ability to be multiclass this defeats the purpose of him. You might not care, but I think many others do.
With CS as the highest over all ranks lol. CS now the new Varian Tank go to build, thanks Karabars!
I observe it in game. If I see that a player is not attentive enough to follow up with a CS then how can I expect them to follow up on a taunt? It’s not like you don’t have a loud audio cue when Varian uses CS. Logically it makes no sense to assume they would follow up with a Taunt when they can’t do it with a CS. Its like expecting someone who can’t hold a pencil to be able to write with a pen.
In these situations its more important that you react to the situation instead of initiate. There was a thread about tips and how sometimes its better to react than to blow all your abilities. Diablo’s I’ve seen in my ranks have trouble with this and will Q and E stupidly and then just end up out of position while the person they stunned walks away freely. Or better yet, they’d flip them to safety. If their tank initiates, you can force a retreat by CSing him and making him squishy and somewhat out of position. Its not super hard and doesn’t require too much coordination. However, if people don’t know how to initiate its not Varian’s fault. Following up with Varian is crucial as he can rarely 100-0 someone.
Personally, I don’t think it’s fair to say that because Varian picked CS is the reason someone loses when there’s 0 follow up to anything Varian does. This of course assumes Varian isn’t just trolling or being a turd.
I didn’t say anything about whether or not you know which heroes make up which role. You said your team had Sonya and the enemy team only had Kharazim as the melee on their team, which is completely possible because ranged bruisers exist. I suggested they had a ranged bruiser on their team.
I look forward to seeing a quick match screen shot where one team has a tank or bruiser and the other team doesn’t.
Our Varian did go for Taunt. I have little idea what happened, except I see the stats, I noticed the constant deaths, I had way more stacks than ever in my lifetime.
Did Taunt succeed in peeling, engaging, protecting? Did he escape things? No.
Granted, I have 26% winrate on Azmodan which is suggesting that he is very underpowered or quirky, but it wasn’t that bad this time, with plenty of orb hits. Sure, I couldn’t really cast the beam and I didn’t end up with the opportunity to backdoor.
So, unless you see something epic wrong with our composition versus theirs… I mean, yes, Anub’arak stunfest was massively OP whereas Varian lacking any ability to stun was massively UP into Gul’dan. Also, Varian lacking area skills and effects (like the burns or Locust Swarm) didn’t help into them.
What would have been the best build for him this match? Concede aside.
The only 3 options would be DVa, Rex, and DW (kinda). Everyone else is melee. Minky is intelligent enough to be able to notice that Sonya was matched against any of the heroes above. Why would she even make the comment if each team had a bruiser?
I have no problem with Varian being Role locked for qm if it improves the balancing.
I’ve managed to win plenty of games picking him and being vs a tank while goong winblades or smash in qm though but I don’t really take qm seriously and they were likely fiesta games.
I don’t know if it is a big problem or if it is mainly a perceived problem by people assuming they can’t win without a tank, similar to how people in ranked don’t like seeing certain heroes.
I think it’s just people pointing fingers, because they love to.
Anub - if you wanna tank, you better take Cocoon!
ETC - Of course you’re going to Mosh. Even into a stun comp. Stage Dive has nothing to do with tanking.
I’m perfectly happy with the idea of having 3 roles for Varian, each with 2 heroics like every other hero.
I mean, it would be easier to add 2 more heroes, Varian and Varian. Could even make a big article about it. Unexpected patch despite maintenance!
I think that would destroy what’s cool and special about Varian.
I highly doubt it. Activision Blizzard is feeling the heat right now so I doubt changing Varian is even a ghost of a thought. Idk if its even spilling into the Activision but their newest MW2 patch is absolute garbage so it might be the whole company suffering not just on the Blizzard side.
I am basing my response on what was posted by Minky. I’m not questioning Minky’s knowledge of characters.
The last sentence says it matches melee to melee, which is why I responded how I did. I have played thousands of quick matches with the current system and I’ve never seen a match where one team has a bruiser or tank and the other team doesn’t, with the exception of Varian. I’d like to see a screen shot of it because I’m skeptical that it happens based on how many games I’ve played without seeing it.
She specifically said one team has Sonya and the other has only Rehgar. Do you really think that if Rehgar’s team had a bruiser she’d be saying that? If the other team had a bruiser it would support the belief that it matches bruiser for bruiser and she wouldn’t have even posted this.
You can be skeptical, that’s perfectly fine, but that doesn’t mean that just because it happens to you, it happens to everyone else. If I remember this conversation when I see this situation occur I’ll share the screenshot.
No, I think Minky misremembers the situation because I don’t believe the “expanding search” of the QM matchmaker throws out the tank vs tank or bruiser vs bruiser rule.
My skepticism is based on my own experience and I would genuinely be interested in seeing evidence of the claim that QM can throw out those specific role mirrors. Regardless, Varian is the only “exception” to the role mirror that can just be tossed out the window by the player’s choice.
They do happen. Bruisers are by far the most common candidate for it, and Tank/Healer is much, much more rare. There are also Bruisers that don’t get matched as Bruisers because in the context of QM they don’t really function as such (Rag, Xul, and Malth are ones I know for sure). To my knowledge, and the recent two games I have with a Sonya, she is matched as a Bruiser.
The idea of melee to melee matchup, irrespective of role, is just hogwash, though. It’s simply not a thing. I played several games of Rehgar as a test since he was a claimed example, and I was matched against a Healer every time. I was never only “matched” as a melee. Khara is also one of the few Healers I enjoy playing, and have seen no such examples in my experience, or at least not enough to dictate any sort of trend.
Examples of Rag and Xul solo Bruiser games which are normal, and solo Thrall which is unusual. https://imgur.com/a/mRrtx7g
But this is all well off the point of the thread. Regardless of the matchmaking disputes for other roles, Varian should be role locked from the queue for QM. A role lock best allows players the choice to play Varian the way they want, while not disadvantaging their team in doing so, and having the matchmaker build teams accordingly.
So what happens when a Tank Varian matches with a Bruiser Varian or Melee Assassin Varian? Would you want to allow two Varians on the same team because one queued for a Tank and the other queued for a Bruiser or Melee Assassin? This would be an effect of your proposal.
I would say no. I don’t think that we should break the game’s basic rules of one character per team for this, and I doubt there would be a perceptible impact from the player’s end on queue times.
Tanks and healers are roles that the matchmaker prioritizes due to trying to allow for each team to be balanced in terms of composition, at least initially. Once the “extended search” message pops up it widens the parameters and essentially means matches may not be perfect. The only way this can be fixed is through more players playing the game or by not widening the parameters but that would bring really long queue times.
As a result, Varian queue locking as CS or TB will most likely have longer queue times than those selecting Taunt, because the matchmaker doesn’t prioritize melee assassins or bruisers (which CS and TB are). This is why you see a lot of matches where Varian’s team doesn’t have a tank. If you are queueing as CS or TB, the matchmaker now has to find matches without a Varian as tank if it were given the rule to not pair him on the same team with another Varian, which will cause higher queue times. In my mind, this would only really benefit Taunt mains since they’ll find matches quicker and don’t mind tanking as Varian. Queueing for CS or TB is just going to mean more time searching than and less time playing.
So just like any other comparison of Tank, Bruiser, and Assassin queues. I don’t see the issue.
I’m sure the game will be able to find some sort of match with either one of the other 13 Tanks, or otherwise a match without Tanks. You are greatly exaggerating the issue.
The understanding of the first thing you quoted relies on understanding of the second thing, they aren’t individual points but instead a collective point that relies on all said. If you split it up then you’re not understanding what I am saying.
The way it works now, is that Varian is queueable as any of the three roles, tank, melee assassin and bruiser. So when you are at the load screen of the match, you can find out whether or not Varian is matched as a tank. If you find that Varian has a tank on his team then you will know that he wasn’t matched as a tank but instead one of his other roles.
If you split each role and each queue is completely separate, you’re essentially locking CS and TB Varian out of more matches than other bruisers, melee assassins or even Taunt Varians. Lets say you’re searching for a match as a CS Varian, you eliminate all matches containing a Taunt Varian, meaning there’s less of a pool to choose from. If you queue up as Kerrigan, Alarak, Malthael, Ragnaros etc. you do not have to worry about whether or not a Varian is the tank. When you queue as CS/TB Varian under these rules you do. If you have less of a pool of matches to be put in your queue’s will be longer. Other bruisers do not have this issue because there are no matches where they have this restriction.
