Just another friendly reminder to the devs to role lock Varian in QM. Have players pick Tank (Taunt), or Bruiser (CS/TB option in match) at the queue screen. Save us all the headache of these horribly unfun, and unfair matches. You already saw fit to broadly role mirror in QM years ago, and even have sub-categories of role matches beyond the ones described in game, so you know these situations are unfair enough for a design response. Varian is even listed as a Brusier, yet only gets matched as a Tank because of the obvious advantage.
inb4 the same three people make the same tired arguments.
Khara is still a healer with Iron Fists
I donât care about getting countered by the enemy comp and not being able to pick a different locked option once the match has started, that can already happen to literally every character anyways
Your character choice about your basic role fulfilment does not trump four other people getting a more fair match
Itâs not fair to Varian players either that they want to play as their designed Bruiser roles, but are exclusively matched as a Tank
Yes, weird comps that lack traditional roles can works in an organized setting, but QM is not that
If you check heroesprofile, most ppl play Varian as a tank in QM, picking Taunt, and when they donât, the other 2 Heroics have similar winrates and success, so⌠why force ppl, which btw would only just increase their wait times?
Both iterations (bruiser for QM, tank for QM) were tested with the following: tank, bruiser, tank. I think everything indicates that there isnât a real issue which needs fixing, just ppl having unrealistic expactiations from themselves, from their allies, or from allied Varians.
He is. He just hits abit harder with that talent. Just because a healer can build for dmg does not mean he is no longer a healer. Will you call E build Alex a dmg dealer aswell ? They are still healers tho they can build for dmg. Its called being a hybrid hero with multiple choices to play.
What Varian players want to play is his choice but in the end he will always get matched up againts other tanks for balance purpose. Imagine one team only got a bruiser as frontline while enemy team got a tank. Thats not how balance works.
The preemptive point I was making is that Khara still functions and fulfills his role as a Healer even when taking Iron Fists. Heâs not a hybrid, heâs just a Healer. Every Healer has damage talents and capability.
On the other hand, Varian does not fulfill his Tank role when taking TB or CS. He lacks the health to adequately front damage (+40% from Taunt, -10% from CS), and he has no baseline lockdown or peel. Taunt is required in order for him to fulfil the role he was matched as.
You hit the nail on the head, while still missing the point entirely, somehow. Marvelous.
If Tank Varian vs any Bruiser is imbalanced, then any Tank vs Bruiser Varian is also imbalanced. Thatâs the point of the role lock at queue. Just let things get actually matched accordingly, as they do in literally every other match that doesnât included a Varian.
As a Varian player, Iâd love it that you could set your role before queuing up for QM. The problem is that bruisers and melee assassins are considered âflexâ roles by the matchmaker, and arenât strictly mirrored.
This is why you can have one team that has, Sonya on their team, and the other team only has Rehgar. This is because itâs matching melee for melee, not bruiser for bruiser.
From what we know, the reason they donât strictly match bruisers/support/melee assassin, is because it would make queue times longer.
Thatâs why I used the qualifier âdonât strictlyâ, because in QM both teams arenât strictly matched bruiser for bruiser. Bruiser like Melee assassins are considered a âflexâ role by the Matchmaker.
Iâm just out of a QM where our team of Solo players had Sonya, and the only melee hero on their team was Kara. This is not uncommon in my personal experience.
Role-lock would have worked better when âmulticlassâ wasnât considered a failed experiment.
Tyrande, Tassadar are also âflexâ heroes that were forced to a more distinct niche due to how talent choices fluctuated their performance and ability to fill a specific role. However, dev design has generally favored âtanksâ being allowed to have role-shifts during the match (eg. splitpush ETC) at the expense of all the other role variations.
May as well pick 3 tanks/bruisers instead of a âspecialistâ
No role is âstrictly matched,â insofar as meaning a match will not generate without said role mirroring. Itâs all attempted, but always subject to the relative pool of players/characters in queue. The system will drop mirror requirements if too few players are queuing in within a certain MMR to satisfy certain role matchups. Iâve seen single Bruiser, Tank, and Healer games before. The later two are exceptionally rare, and were all brutal if memory serves.
You may be confusing the fact that some role matching requirements are dropped if others are met. Such as matches typically trying to mirror Bruisers unless there is already a Tank on each side, then it drops the Bruiser mirror requirement, and you are somewhat likely to see a Tank vs Tank/Bruiser comp. Similarly, thereâs a Sustain sub-category that the game will try to match unless there are matched Healers, then it will drop that requirement.
(âRequirementâ obviously being a loosely used term here.)
I couldnât honestly tell you the last time, or even if, Iâve ever seen that. That is incredibly uncommon. My assumption is that based on the players within that MMR set it made more sense to give each team a unique role advantage to somewhat balance each other out, rather than delay queues longer, or instead generate two different matches where each match had one team with a role advantage.
From the perspective of wanting to play as Taunt, Blades or CS, I can get behind this.
I wouldnât lock the talent choice, though. Sometimes itâs better to deviate as the team needs different contribution. In Khaldorâs recent tournament videos Iâve seen, teams without a tank won more than lost. I like (and prefer) this flexibility myself.
As for the matchmaker, I assume it creates some matchups and then assigns score to them, ultimately picking the best (combination) above a threshold.
Kharazim has a tendency to play main tank indeed. Same with Zeratul.
Itâs important to recognize this because it can affect how you want to spread. If Iâm in the main tank role as Xul, I should stay with my team and provide my roots (and summons) for them, and nudge someone else to go and solo lane.
It doesnât match melee to melee and ranged to ranged. If your team had a Sonya, Iâm sure the other team had a bruiser - possibly Dva or Rexxar. They are still considered bruisers despite being ranged.
This suggestion has nothing to do with tournament play, or even slightly more organized settings like Draft where a plan and comp can be intentionally built.
Iâd say that QM is actually the place that taught me that you donât. I mean have you seriously not won more than your fair share of those Varian games? Yeah, Iâve lost horribly with some CS and TB Varians, but Iâve also won quite a few too. If you look at the QM data, the win rates are more or less the same. If you think youâre losing more with a non Taunt Varian, youâre probably making an incorrect conclusion and then applying your own confirmation bias.
I mean if you can blow up someone in 3 seconds with CS you donât really need a tank because now youâre 5v4. You make every hero squishy and with follow up you can destroy a fight really easily. TBâs sustain is what makes him beefy. He can dodge basic attacks, has heals with every auto attack, and can slow enemies (2 ways just like every role Varian plays). His only weakness is CC. Iâd still prefer CS if the Varian decides they donât want to tank. I mean tbh if you canât follow up on his smashâs you probably would attack the tank instead of the taunted healer anyway.
Learning to adapt to other players will help almost anyone turn what looks like an unwinnable game to a winnable one. Most QM players arenât willing to do that and thatâs fine, theyâre not forced, but if youâre one of those players, donât cry when you lose.
Varian is supposed to be an adaptable hero, so by locking his role during queue you take away what makes Varian, Varian. What if you queued for melee assassin but then had to deal with a Zeratul and Genji? Or a Zeratul and Tracer? Wouldnât you wish you could Taunt them instead of CS? Guess what, now youâre locked out of the Tank role because youâre given a tank on your team because you queued for melee assassin. Good luck handling that as CS.
Feel free to share this data. And make sure weâre looking at matches that are Tank vs TB/CS.
CS is rarely going to get free kills like that when thereâs a Tank to prevent, or peel the engage, and the targets that actually get globaled by CS arenât going to just sit in the front and let it happen. Sure, you can get a pick ahead of the team fight, but thatâs not a full game plan for handling every objective.
Which is easily countered by the stun, blind, or attack speed slow that just about every Tank has baseline, other heroes notwithstanding. So he requires a specific level 7 talent to maybe function in his role, but can then be immediately shut down by any other Tankâs basic kit.
Oh good, weâre already into insults instead of actual arguments.
Again with the attacks.
I give every single match a fair shot. I never call it quits until the core is dead, or say gg four minutes into a game. When Iâm on an appropriate character, I know I can switch to a macro focus and attempt to win the game that way. But the trend is extremely clear, and itâs an uphill battle every time. Itâs never fun knowing the odds are notably stacked against you.
But heâs not being matched as adaptable. Heâs being matched as a Tank.
When I filter on Varian, quick match, and unique level 4 talent, I see Taunt at 56% win rate, CS at 46%, and TB at 41%. We know that Varian is considered a tank in QM, so we can assume every match Varian was in had a tank on the opposing team. I think this actually shows how unbalanced it is to not have a role lock for him.
Uhhh, why would you do that though? When you do that, all youâve done is looked at those three specific builds on display, not all builds that use the varying talents in different variations, which is how you should look at the data. I have no idea what is even the logical leap that would make you think that was even remotely correct.