Ragnaros is in kind of a weird spot

Specifically, his two ultimates and trait. To give a very short answer, it feels like (at least to me) that Lava wave is very close to being outright mandatory on Rag at the moment.

Sure, Sulfuras Smash is really strong. If used right, it can instantly delete most assassins and basically win a teamfight. But lava wave can win games almost by itself. Every time I take lava wave, my XP contribution shoots up to 2 or 3 times what it would otherwise be by the end of a game. Oftentime, when I check the XP bar, I can see that the only reason my team is either ahead on levels, or not game-endingly far behind, is because of that additional XP contribution. And that alone wins teamfights, perhaps better than sulfuras smash ever could.

Furthermore, beyond its mere XP benefits, it shoves out waves really hard. It can, if timed properly, allow two nearly full hp waves slam into a wall, keep, fort, etc. and severely damage it or even destroy it if it is weakened already (Unless, of course, an enemy is there to stop it or responds after the fact, which can take them away from important objectives if they are going on at the time). Furthermore, it is very potent at dealing with bruiser and siege camps, and can flat-out end longer term fights that result when a team gets one or two camps and a big wave and pushes with it, as it deletes the minions and severely damages the camps. It takes away all their push power and makes it so much harder for them to shove, especially if combined with his trait to further delete the wave.

With Lava Wave, Ragnaros has so much pushing power and anti-pushing power it’s insane.

The thing is, I don’t necessarily believe this is a bad thing. I thing, on the whole, Rag needs something like this to work since he doesn’t have much else in his kit. As a bruiser, he is sort of lacking. The heal on his Q is extremely small unless you get lucky or have a team dedicated to forcing clumps, the speed on his E is useful but it’s damage is pathetic, even if yo utalent into it. His W can hurt, but requires the enemy to either be really stupid or the Rag to be extremely good at aiming it (the meteor talent build helps alot with it). He has no CC outside of sulfuras smash (which he is unlikely to have, since lava wave is so good), and is actually not very durable. My friends and I all believe that he isn’t really a bruiser, but in fact a melee assassin with less damage. This isn’t a good thing, especially since he is labeled as a bruiser and ends up worsening the already poor matchmaking as a result of the mislabel.

Furthermore, his trait is really cool, and it can be pretty alright in certain circumstances (IE stopping a hard push as per above). What is not alright is the level 20 talent, Heroic Difficulty. I want it to be good, and useful, cuz it’s cool and flavorful. But as a talent it is so abysmally bad, especially when combined with the opportunity cost of not getting either of the other level 20 talents, all of which are far and away superior. At level 20, there is no contest. Second lava wave is objectively the best, and if you didn’t take lava wave and have somehow survived to level 20, then Submerge is almost certainly better than, of all things, a slow on the relatively small area of an ability whose sole purpose is to night instantly delete people. If you whiff smash, a slow will not does not really make up for it, and if you hit it, the slow doesn’t really matter at all.

Personally, I think lava wave is fairly powerful on it’s own. Second lava wave is too strong. His trait is good, but not really that good, and certainly not good enough to justify taking heroic difficulty. Sulfuras smash is good, but not as good as lava wave.

Lava wave can’t really be nerfed in ways that won’t utterly trash it, since it’s strength comes from instantly popping waves and dealing heavy damage to non-minions. Nerf the damage, and itll still delete waves and lose barely any power. Take away popping waves, and it becomes worthless. Up its cooldown any more and it’ll lose its usefulness cuz of how inoften it occurs and gimp any chance of ever actually using it during a fight (which can and does happen).

For me, personally, I think an ideal solution would be to move Lava wave to his trait, with the same stipulation as his current trait for it’s cooldown. His current trait would take the place of his second ultimate, but would have the effects of Heroic difficulty rolled into it, have the range of the W and E increased, and its ability to damage structures removed. Instead of having talents that improve his ultimates, he can instead opt to simply have both of them, similar to Alarak. Submerge is still good, and the 2 charges of lava wave can be changed to simply be a 60 second cooldown reduction to his trait, and nothing more.

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This discussion seems like just another LW complaint?

Short: In un-coordinated games sure, but in coordinated games with friends or good players on discord/voice chat S.S is better. Ragnaros is squishy af for a bruiser, but can deal a lot of damage, if you don’t take S.S you weaken your teamfight presence even more for more makro power. That’s balanced.

You probably never saw a good Vikings, Samuro or Azmo.

Lava wave as his trait? Now I am confused… on the one hand you complain about the push power and on the other you want give him wave on his trait? That’s a hell of a contradiction and on top you remove one of the more unique and strong traits with molten core.

No from me.

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It’s not really a complaint. I like that lava wave is good, it would be boring if it wasn’t. I’m worried that it might be too good, so good that it makes it hard to play around or justify using the other options.

And I play almost exclusively coordinated games with my friends on voice comms, and SS certainly isn’t bad. But it is very rarely better than just having the pressure of lava wave.

Vikings, azmo, and Abathur (idk about samuro, rarely see him except when my friend plays him and he definitely doesn’t use him to push) all push better, sure, but they don’t do it while also being rag. The context of the kit and character matters alot, especially when it comes to the relative costs of what they do.

Azmo is huge, slow, and his push has windups and is much slower than a lava wave deleting waves (But also doesn’t cost an ultimate ability). Vikings are great at soaking, but have a hard time in teamfights unless the viking player is really good, and likewise have a nasty habit of feeding kill-quests even if the viking player is good. Abathur is abathur, and just plain strong at the moment, but otherwise loses much of his presence for his push power.

But comparisons are not the point. The point is that right now, it feels like Lava Wave is so good, that it nearly shoves out SS. I have to go to great lengths to justify taking SS, and even when I do I often find myself regretting it and realizing that Lava Wave would have been more helpful overall, despite the picks that SS helped secure. Heroic difficult is cool, but atrociously bad, especially since its opportunity cost is lava surge and/or submerge.

The basic idea is that “If lava wave is so good that its basically mandatory, then make it baseline and provide a different choice entirely.” With the new choice being between an upgraded version of his current trait or SS, with the option later to have both anyways or take submerge/surge

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Sure lane pressure is never wrong and LW is an easy to use heroic compared to S.S. that’s why I agree that LW feels like it’s too powerful, because it’s hardly possible to fail this heroic. But when players know how to play I made the experience that LW feels like an win more heroic. That means it won’t help you, if you’re leading, only if you’re playing from behind and Rag already has great wave clear even without LW.

Yeah, rag has great wave clear. But with Lava Wave he can be clearing one lane, and instantly delete another. Even the other heroes that can push lanes they “aren’t in” (IE vikings, aba, azmo) can’t quite delete 2 (or 3, on some maps) waves of minions with a single button, on top of weakening or outright removing some merc camps.

In a situation where you’re already leading, LW is absolutely a win more mechanic. The extra XP it nets you can make it extremely difficult for the enemy team to come back. And in a behind situation it can be the only thing keeping your team in the game on levels. It’s really good! So good that when I take SS, it feels awful. Feels like I am choosing my own fun over winning the game t.t

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Not as fast as Rag that’s true, but they also don’t use their heroic for this purpose. That’s a big difference. If Rag chooses the wave, he sacrofices his heroic for this.

When did you sacroficed your heroic for killing minions, except Rag?

It is.

Like I said, it’s a weird spot. I don’t think Rag is bad, or even extremely good. But it sorta feels like deathwing to me, I feel pigeonholed into choosing what seems to be the best option. I also really want to be able to use heroic difficulty but just can’t t.t

What do you mean by “able to use heroic difficulty”?

His level 20 talent that gives his trait 25% more HP and damage, and reduces the cooldown by 50s. I love his trait, but heroic difficulty in particular is nigh unusable because it requires not taking Lava Surge and/or Submerge, both of which are god tier talents.

Not to mention that only 25% hp damage… really isn’t that much. Even with 25% more hp, his trait burns down so quickly and can be easily negated if the enemy team is smart. Especially since Rag loses access to the rest of his kit while in it :confused:

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Ah, I see.

well that’s just shows that Rag has all powerful 20 talents and that’s how it should be. He has probably the most balanced talent tree, where all talents have it’s purpose.

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I don’t see much use for blast wave build, personally. But aside from Lava Wave being so good it shoves out SS and Heroic Difficulty, and oftentimes Submerge as well, I’d agree.

Maybe they should reduce the exp gain from LW as it’s probably the major factor and it’s easy to use, but on the other hand, if Rag’s exp power is nerfed, then I fear Azmo, TLV will be the new kings.

Hello, I’m a lvl 117 rag one trick, with a qm winrate of 65% and an sl winrate of about 60%. I said this because I think you need this info to fully understand how literally wrong you are.

Lava wave, outside of heavily uncoordinated play, and low ranks, is mostly a terrible pick.

I can also tell that you very much so have no idea about the hero just by you saying that Heroic Difficulty is “nigh unpickable”, when it’s the default pick of the tier, no matter your ult.

Also, your lack of knowledge about Molten Core speaks volumes, considering it’s rag’s core ability that gives him any sort of value in early to mid game teamfights, as well as being a massive threat in the late game with Heroic Difficulty, especially if you have smash, considering HCD SS E W combo will one shot assassins and healers, as well as lower hp bruisers, and deal significant damage to everyone else.

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Hi, lvl 43 Rag here, 63% winrate overall (QM and Diamond/Masters SL).
That’s high rank/mmr, right? LavaWave won my games.

Also you can go to HeroesProfile. Check Masters-only winrates/statistics. You can see, that LavaWave is not just way more popular there, but also have a higher winrate.

SS is nice, but it’s less impactful on average as LW.
So I’m curios what’s your rank?

On topic: Molten Core should remain a Trait, it’s iconic. Unlike LW.

Lava wave is very iconic too though.

I doubt it that LW won your games, but more likely your team won you the games, people usually draft around Ragnaros weakness being a fragile bruiser and that’s huge already.

If SS is less impactful on average in higher leagues then higher leagues are no difference to lower leagues though. In lower leagues LW won’t save you, if your team is losing the teamfights and it only enables that you don’t lose too much exp.

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I doubt you know my matches better. I played it, not you, and our gameknowledge is not on the same lvl (no offense).

What do you mean by that? In what context?

Your game knowledge is not much higher than mine and based on heroesprofile my Ragnaros is also “master” and my seasonal winrate with him is currently 70%. But nice try.

Still Silver amirite? With many times proven to be wrong on the forums. I think you overestimate yours and under mine, but whatevs.

I could tell the same about you. You have a big mouth, but you’re not really that great based on heroesprofile. I don’t say I am better than you, but you aren’t much better than me, that’s for sure.

Hi,

Only started ranked somewhat seriously this season with a friend, atm we’re in gold 4.

I won mine with smash HCD, primarily Q build.

What build did you use?

I feel like smash can be way more impactful than wave, but I suppose everyone has their preferences based on personal experience.

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