QoL Request: Talent Planning

General Discussion
1

Problem:

Requiring Talents to be manually chosen upon leveling has four major drawbacks:

  1. It can lead to accidental selections in the heat of the moment. Talents (and especially Heroics) are incredibly important and, while the vast majority of talents and abilities are hardly useless in all situations, many are more optimal in certain conditions than others. Picking the wrong Talent or Heroic can easily be the difference between a win and a loss.
  2. It can lead to missing out on critical opportunities. Almost every Talent provides additional Offense, Defense, or Utility, and the presence of those can be instrumental in many things - securing a Takedown, surviving an attack, or even just gathering information. Alternately, the Talent could be a Quest, and not having it chosen in time could lead to missing out on valuable progress.
  3. It can lead to misunderstandings between teammates. Some Talents and many Heroics are instrumental in deciding a Hero’s role in the match and, unfortunately, not everyone uses Allied Chat or Team Voice to communicate their intentions. This leaves the unfortunate potential for things like a team getting Putrid Bile when they expected Gorge or Twin Blades when they expected Taunt.
  4. There’s no way to ensure the A.I. that takes over for you when you Disconnect chooses Talents or Heroics that you want or that the team needs. HOTS’s A.I. players are notorious for destroying builds and disrupting plans in the event of a player disconnecting.

Solution:

Allow players to plan their Talent choices in advance by giving them the ability to Highlight their intended choices (via clicking them (Mouse 1, Alt + Mouse 1, Mouse 2) or using keyboard shortcuts) and instantly acquire them when they become available. For a visual example:

Step 1
Preview upcoming Talents.

Step 2
Highlight the desired Talent before reaching the required level.

Step 3
Obtain the Highlighted Talent upon meeting the requirements.

Additional Mechanical Details
  • Only one Talent per Talent Tier may be Highlighted at a time. Highlighting another Talent at the same Talent Tier will un-Highlight the previous Talent.
  • A player can un-Highlight their choice to return to the current functionality of requiring a manual selection. Un-Highlighting a Talent would be achieved by performing the same action that the user took to Highlight a Talent on a currently Highlighted Talent (ex: if the user Highlighted a Talent by using Alt+Mouse 1, they can un-Highlight it by using Alt+Mouse 1 again).
  • Any Talent Tier may have a Talent Highlighted at any time, but the acquisition of the Highlighted Talent still follows the standard rules. For example, a user may Highlight a Level 7 Talent, but until they have fulfilled the requirements of obtaining it (aka both “being Level 7” and “having obtained Level 1 and 4 talents”), the Highlighted Talent will not be chosen.

The request for the ability to pre-determine your Hero’s Talents is not a new one, but the majority of the requests in the past have been for “Talent Builds” that are chosen before a match even begins (not unlike the Rune Pages and Masteries from League of Legends). The problem with Talent Builds is that the majority of Talents are supposed to be reactionary: they’re intended to be chosen based on the Battleground and the opposing team, not be a vehicle for the player to use the same tactic in every situation.

Talent Planning, however, requires the player to be in-game before allowing them to make advance decisions, neatly circumventing the rigid thinking brought on by using a pre-determined build. Talent Planning also gives the player something to do during the 35 seconds before the gates open and the match proper begins, reducing the risk of players getting distracted during those early moments and also giving their teammates insight on what Talents they plan on choosing. Additionally, in the event of a disconnect, it would also give the A.I. that takes over a valid plan to follow instead of seemingly choosing Talents at random.

And y’know, it’d just be convenient. Not having to worry about popping open the Talent Menu every couple levels or picking the right thing in the heat of a teamfight would be pretty nice.

19 Likes
2

Dislike the lock in if you forget to unlock it. AKA manually selecting talents only please.

But being able to show teammates planned talents would be a massive improvement. And that part alone is a great idea.

How in the world have I not seen such a suggestion previous to this. Not even the talent build ones though about this showing to teammates.

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Please yes.

Good post

Good topic

5 Likes
4

Part of skill imo.
Can also lead ppl to try out talents they never did before.

In ideal scenarios, you only create and go for “critical opportunities” when you already got your talent lead on your enemies.
It also a sort of skill to pick them quickly.
I had some funny moments where I saved myself with picking a talent (intentionally) -which btw I didn’t want to pick origianally-.

There are really few Heroes which can differ so much with different talents (usually with Heroics). But you can tell your allies your intentions before the game even started. You have time for that, even in QM, not talking about draft.

So my problems are:

  • I think it’s a nice skill that ppl need to know which talent is which and pick it quickly (also, ppl still shouldn’t start fights or ganks shortly before getting their expected next talents)
  • Accidental talent picks can open ppl’s minds who’d never guess that that talent could be good as well
  • Sometimes there are situations when you want to change your build in the heat of the moment.

However, I like the idea that ppl are able to ping their intentions (also let ppl ping the amount of stacks they have on their quests).

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I just wish the talent picking menu didnt auto pop up so when I’m fighting and the talents appear I don’t accidentally click on them.

10 Likes
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Just don’t Highlight any Talents, then. It’s an optional, not mandatory.

Thank you!

Because most people don’t think these sorts of things through.

:smile:

So is Last Hitting. Doesn’t mean it’s fun.

True, but I’d prefer that people do that intentionally and with the proper build instead of accidentally and probably in a non-synergistic environment.

Not all scenarios are ideal.

Again, doesn’t mean it’s fun.

It’s true that most Heroes don’t have major performance variants due to Talents, but some do - Nazeebo, Kel’thuzad, and Alexstrasza are good examples.

This is true! However, as I pointed out in the proposal, not everyone does. In fact, from my experience, most players don’t start communicating until something starts going wrong. This proposal gives players an additional method of communication tied that’s tied to a convenient service, making a total lack of communication less likely.

Again (again), just because something requires skill doesn’t mean it’s a good element of gameplay - especially if the decision in question is irreversible and can have a major impact on your performance.

Again, I’d much rather that people trying out new things is intentional rather than accidental. Screwing up your plans isn’t fun.

If the system was implemented as I designed it, there would be nothing stopping a user from doing exactly this.

The Talent Window hasn’t automatically opened upon leveling for some time, I thought?

2 Likes
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But that mean that you are not showing it to your team.
Or perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote in the OP?

problem is people don’t.
They either:

  1. have their talent build they don’t deviate from
  2. Go on hotslogs and decide something is the best based on winrate.

Pretty sure that covers most builds. sadly :frowning:

+10
I dunno how many times I’ve tried to talk to people in QM before it heats up and got nothing.
And while I could see that happening in EU servers due to all the languages flying around…
It shouldn’t be happening on US west…

1 Like
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Hitting a huge, stationary panel of text to select the talent is much easier than landing a skill shot on moving targets (which is mandatory if you want to win the match). If you can do the latter (can’t you?), I don’t see why can’t do the former.

9

I tend to use the Ctrl key to view and select talents, so while this doesn’t seem unreasonable, it won’t really impact the game the way I play it.

10

At the heat of battle I get nervous and I tend to press all buttons like crazy without being able to manage cooldowns or look at where the mouse pointer is… I wish there was like an ability to allow AI to take control of my hero for like 5 or 10 seconds, like in shooting games that you can play slow motion… That way I wouldn’t feel like a noob. Which is something that this game sometimes makes me feel, and I do not like to feel bad emotions. It makes me feel unconfortable about my self being. I just want to think that I feel happy.

I wish some day I can be able to use the smiley emoticon.

11

I think this would be a nice addition, but low priority. The three points you list as “major drawbacks” are not: they are minor things that happen a small amount of the time. Regarding the third point: just like your teammate can choose not to use text/voice chat, they can also choose not to look at the talents of other players. Your proposal does not solve this issue.
Overall, I agree, this would be nice to have. Most games, I already know 75% of my build after I see the enemy team comp. However, the current system is not a big enough issue to warrant a change.

You do not understand QoL changes. Sure, I can walk up the stairs, but the escalator is more convenient. It’s not that the OP can’t do the former, the latter is just more convenient.

2 Likes
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The thing is that it would be a quality of life change, but also it would be a way for bad players to stay bad. Like, players would preffer to take this option, when maybe today, without that option, at least some players will check the oponent talents or your team’s heroics and things like that.

This is also why HotS does not get guild/clan support. Sure, if it gets it, people will use it, but it is not something that the game or the players need, because if it did, you would have clans/guilds today, and you don’t even have teams that you play Team League with.

I say you as you the general gamer that plays the game, not you whoever that is reading this reply.

13

Convenient this, convenient that. Would you like the game to hand you free, automatic wins every time you start a match too? That would be convenient.

14

It’s true that you wouldn’t be showing it to your team in advance, but it’s still optional.

Maybe I’m just weird, then - aside from the Heroes that plainly suffer from Best Build Syndrome (like Tychus), I adjust my build based on my team, the enemy team, and the Battleground we’re on.

For example, if I’m Zul’jin, I never take Headhunter against an Abathur, I always take Boneslicer and Vicious Assault on BoE, and I always go Mage’jin (Recklessness, Arcanite Axes, Guillotine) if I’m up against a bunch of Blinds. If I’m Nazeebo, I do Toad Build against melee-heavy comps and Thing of Arachyr when I need to focus on dealing damage safely or rotating quickly. Kharazim’s everything relies on if the team is rolling Double Healer or not.

While there are definitely a lot of people that your points apply to, I feel it’s not enough to truly be a point against my concept - just because people misuse a system doesn’t mean that the system itself is bad. At worst, Talent Planning would just make it slightly easier to use the same build every time (which honestly isn’t that big of a deal compared to the upsides).

I most certainly wouldn’t have made it to Diamond and periodically dip into Masters if I was incapable of selecting talents, I don’t think. The thing is, though - this isn’t a question of removing a skill requirement, it’s a request to add convenience. There’s nothing wrong with making a system more convenient to use, especially if it doesn’t impact the overall balance of the game in any appreciable way.

And that’s fine. Manual selection - either via the keyboard or mouse - wouldn’t be interrupted or deprecated by this system.

I think that goes a little beyond the scope of the suggestion, haha.

QoL changes often are.

Missing out on a Talent that’s vital to your build is hardly minor, I would think. I will admit that 2 and 3 are not necessarily “major”, but accidentally taking the wrong Talent (or Heroic) can be disastrous, and that - to me - is fair enough to call major.

True, but it does put more blame on them for not bothering to look.

Sure it is. The Heroes team has consistently made UI/UX improvements over HOTS’s lifetime - Colorblind Mode, Drag Scroll, and Cursor Guides are all QoL improvements that weren’t “big issues”, but they still happened. Not everything needs to be a major balance change.

There are many ways for bad players to stay bad. I don’t think this is a very strong point.

It would be convenient if you had a discussion in good faith instead of trying to equate navigating a menu with skilled gameplay.

15

I agree, picking the wrong talent can be detrimental. I’m also considering frequency when classifying the problem as major/minor. So for me (anecdotally), the accidental picks don’t occur frequently enough to warrant the problem being major. Of course, this varies person-to-person, and I respect your classification.

While I agree with you, blame-shifting doesn’t fix the issue (active participation/cooperation).

You are definitely correct. I’m concerned about resource/time management. Given recent events, if resources are stretched thin, I am okay with this change falling to the wayside. However, TETO. (To Each Their Own)

16

Is mis clicking talents really an issue? Off the top my head ive had what 3 misclicks in like 2 yrs of hots. Misclicks where i cursed and screwed up.
Is picking the wrong hero at draft an issue too that needs insurance? I just dont see this one.
Teammate coordination i can kind of get behind. It be nice to know what my etc had planned for lvl 10 assuming he selected it.

17

I’ve been wanting that for a while now. Recently I’ve been getting really often this issue, where I need to learn a talent 2-3 times before I actually learn it. Like I learn a level 4 talent on level 4, but then I see on level 5 that it hasn’t learned, so I learn it again, and on level 6 yet another time, it’s so damn annoying. My ‘new’ mouse is defective and is sometimes doubleclicking, or when I’m dragging stuff with it it often releases the hold, and then clicks again randomly. But I don’t know if that’s what’s causing my problem… I mean, I’ve always experienced it, but lately way more often than usual. Like almost every game I get a delay on my talents of 1-2 levels.
And also, if you dc, AI wouldn’t ruin your build :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes
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I’ve wanted this for a while. It’s possible to appease everyone by just making it toggled in the settings or somewhere else accessible. Also worth highlighting the utility of this on disconnects, as opposed to just misclick insurance. Enough times I reconnect to a game to have the AI break my build.

2 Likes
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Yes we need this… most of the time I already know what build I will go when I see the draft and the map… no need to wait til I hit lvl 10 to decide on an ult

1 Like
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That’s fair.

It doesn’t fix it, no, but it does make it better. Unfortunately, as long as there’s a human element (and a massive human element, at that), it’s not something that can be fixed once and for all. For problems like that, I feel that aiming for “better” is about the best one can do.

At worst, it’d just be another thing on the “to-do” list for the UI/UX team between major projects (like events), so it wouldn’t really suck up as much time as you would think.

It most certainly can be. It’s arguably the only flaw of HOTS’s Talent system when compared to the Item Shops of other MOBAs - if you buy the wrong item, you can sell it and get a refund. In HOTS however, Talents are there to stay once chosen.

The draft and core gameplay of HOTS are not comparable. Matches require the player to keep track of many things at once (micro/macro balance, soak, positioning, sparring, posturing, teamfighting, map awareness, objectives, so on and so forth). Drafting only requires the player to keep track of the battlefield, their team, and the enemy team. There’s no chance of being ganked during the draft or having to choose your hero mid-Teamfight.

oh man this is also an enormous benefit thank you for bringing it up