If you can’t rank out of bronze then there many things that you are still not doing well enough. The enemy team is also full of bronze players so you should have an easy time against them unless you are on a similar skill level which means you are correctly placed for the moment.
Emitt Smith got carried by Larry Allen and the rest of his line. I was thinking more like Jim Brown or Sweetness.
Don’t mistake “Best” with “Highest Ranked”. The two are not necessarily mutual qualities.
Is player who consistently ranks top 4 but never 1st “better” or “worse” then a player who only once or twice gets ranked 1st but further down the ranks subsequently?
The point is that these designations are subjective at best. At the end of the day all that really matters, regardless of anyone’s opinion on who is the best, is who wins, even if the guy that wins is objectively less skilled.
Competition isn’t about finding out who is the better player, it’s about determining who can win at that moment in time.
That’s why this is a meaningless and pointless argument to make on the topic.
Name just one of those things that are being “done wrong”. I’m genuinely curious.
I was watching Fan in bronze/silver the other day and I can tell you from a master players perspective that simply playing a good macro game can get out of this tier. Multiple ways you can do this. Play a hero that takes all the camps on a map like Hanamura, or Garden. Push forts/keeps with a hero like Naz or Azmo with Demonic invasion and Gargantuan. People in these lower brackets are more focused on fighting eachother like its ARAM than actually knowing how to win the game. So you asked for ONE thing and this is long winded but BETTER MACRO play.
How so? When the rest of your team might be doing the exact opposite and sabotaging any effort a single player might make in that regard, what amount of “macro” could fix such a situation? Let’s assume that the player in question isn’t GM, but their relative knowledge and skill could work just fine in Gold/Platinum.
I do this all the time. It works about 50% of the time. 
Be more specific.
I do this all the time. It works about 50% of the time.
Be more specific.
Indeed…
Be more specific.
I did not say “done wrong” - i said OP might be not doing well enough.
We can watch a replay of the OP and analyze every little detail but then i want to get paid xD
This is not actionable and insufficient to provide an adequate appraisal of what might be holding them back.
Be more specific.
dude how can i be more specific if i haven’t seen the game?
I don’t know what happened during that match…
Then don’t make assumptions like “If you can’t rank out of bronze then there many things that you are still not doing well enough.”
I’m not gonna answer all those individually but I will answer you since you wanted more complete answers. So, part of being a good macro player is having map awereness. For example, the temples are up on Sky Temple and they are all brawling over the middle on on the first shrine roation. Simply just walk to top and start soaking it. Part of ranking up as a high level player is coaching people below your level while trying your best to not be condescending to them to piss them off. “Play safe and distract them mid, let them make a mistake.” at the very least you are going to get an even trade if they listen and each team has a shrine but more likely in bronze/silver the other team will over commit chasing into your team too far and they can possibly turn the tables. (Map awereness) Seeing when you can take the 15-20 seconds to use your ult as Naz or Azmo and take the wall or fort down for free while the rest of the team is distracted. You also asked about camps. The siege camps and turret camps dont make that much impact but if you can get the samurai or the bruiser camp and then tell your team to make a distraction. With you or without you the people in bronze/silver obviously smurfs wont fall for the bait but they will want to fight. So just distract them with a long drawn out poke fight while your camps get value. A lot of it has to do with coaching your team into drawing the enemy into situations that dont benefit them. Kinda like magicians do with magic. Have them looking at you when they should be looking at the map.
Why not? It’s a valid assumption because nobody can play this game perfectly. It’s reasonable to assume that someone isn’t doing well enough if he can’t even beat bronze players…
I guarantee it, if we watch the replay we will find a lot of missed opportunities and mistakes…
I religiously watch the mini map. I am often pinging the map for my less then attentive teammates. I still only win 50% of my matches.
None of this will work. When was the last time you were in lower leagues trying to provide “advice” to your team? You’d be lucky if you didn’t start a flame war in chat by doing this, further distracting your team from doing what they need to do. Half the time your teammates will just die because they stopped playing to start typing their anger filled reply. Or they decided that you’re not the boss of them, and as such, purposely go and do the opposite of what you’ve suggested just to show you who’s boss.
Again, how would you know if you aren’t watching the game?
I’m looking for an objective answer, not some wishy washy assumption with no baring in fact other then a vague feeling that it’s just gotta be true.
2 Likes
None of this will work. When was the last time you were in lower leagues trying to provide “advice” to your team? You’d be lucky if you didn’t start a flame war in chat by doing this, further distracting your team from doing what they need to do. Half the time your teammates will just die because they stopped playing to start typing their anger filled reply. Or they decided that you’re not the boss of them, and as such, purposely go and do the opposite of what you’ve suggested just to show you who’s boss.
I mean that is why I specifically said that you need to try not be condescending because yes people will get tilted and think you think you are better than them and start typing to you and that helps no one, but GENRALLY speaking people in ranked want to win. So if what you are telling them makes sense and you are not a complete dick about it they tend to give you a chance. The last time I was in low Elo in ranked was never at least not since like the OG preseason lvl 50 to I dont like 30? I don’t play smurf accounts because I think its a dick move. I do play quickmatch fairly often with silver and bronze players though so its about the same.
So you think OP has the skills of a grand master player but still lost against a team full of bronze players because there is nothing he could have done better? Because you haven’t seen the match you think this scenario seems more realistic?
What is an objective answer to your question lol? Do you want me to explain how i win matches?
ELO hell is not about being able to get out. Its about the way the algoritm makes it very difficult to do so.
The problem is that ELO is still designed for 1v1 and not 5v5. And when getting closer to the boundaries, you are going to find a much greater skill variance.
When players get matched together, its especialy the lower ranks being a problem as their MMR has a restriction to the lower boundary (it cant go below 0). And when averaging out these values, causes a very skewed balance. Sure, algoritms can counter this to some degree, but its not perfect because skill within ELO is not linear!.
A ELO 100 player is not double as good as an ELO 50, its not even about the part that an elo of 100 is going to win double as much. They are just being more reliable and for example you can be about 80% certain they are going to win.
The problem is that ELO 50 is extremely low, that causes that to be 80% instead of 90%. And this starts a chain reaction.
When you put 5 together, that lowest player is going to drag a team down, much more than a better player is going to pull it up. As a result, you cant realy get a reliable prediction anymore.
As a result, you can be estimated to win at a 54% chance, but that player just drags it down to 50% again. And this randomness causes a lot of players to stall at a certain rank, while they might actualy have been a rank higher (an ELO 300-400 can be stuck at ELO 200).
This is what is called ELO hell. And its a natural result because a 1v1 system is used in a 5v5 situation. And its sadly still the best system that exists, just because it is this difficult to correct.
Yes, a player can be realy stuck there, even if he doesnt belong there. ELO wise it might be fine as it doesnt expect games to go horrible (as if that happens, you would rise quickly). But you do not rise because of this variety, and remain stuck in those horrible games.
Its a well known flaw of the ELO system. And a primary reason why people smurf (and are effective at it). If they did improve enough, they arent going to drop back into that hell, because they truly are better. Its just that they at some point did end up there, and once there, they became stuck.
And after smurfing, they therefor might bounce between 300-400 without any issues.
However, when players above that hell smurf, they are causing a secondary issue, because they are forcing other players down again. Which can then end up in ELO hell again, and become forced to smurf to get out of it.
This creates a major trash situation that made ELO hell an impossible hell to get out off, unless you are at least several ranks above that rank.
1 Like
Out of curiosity: what are your usual picks? I’m asking because I’d recommend mastering and sticking to some Heroes that’ll get you out of most situations and avoid falling back in ELO hell next Season.
Not implying that your picks might not be good, but some Heroes function better with a team that can actually play the game, while others, like Arthas, can just about bully anyone and anything and guarantee a solid win rate, especially in those brackets.
Nailed it in one.
This is regularly mentioned by the engineers for ranked match making but nobody wants to listen. Marketing these solutions has thus veered off into territory that doesn’t line up well the the solution. Hell True Skill talks regularly of how it can match the objective skills of players together (with a high rate of success) but it’s still just rating a player based on their ability to win games in relation to that of their nearest peers. These systems tell us nothing directly about the actual abilities of any individual player.
Yes, True Skill can reliably predict match results based on statistical analysis but again, it tells you nothing about why that player is being rated as such. The engineers are on record as saying that they do have statistics related to individual ability and there is most definitely a correlation between players who are able to achieve observable skills and their ability to rate high in MMR, but match making doesn’t use this data to generate matches. It’s more a confirmation that “hmmm… yes it does seem that players with observable and measurable skill sets do advance in rank.” That’s as expected, but they do go on to say that match making in TEAM games is not a black and white proposition, and that it’s been very hard to get it to “feel” right.
At the end of the day, MMR/Elo is not the greatest fit for rating individuals in team games BUT it’s literally the only tool we have to get players into matches that are even remotely fair, at least on paper if not in the perceptions of the players themselves.
The moral of the story is that Players should not be playing team games solo. And they shouldn’t’ take too seriously their individual ratings as a reliable metric for how well they are playing the game amongst their peers. The answer to this long drawn out question isn’t ever going to be “fix match making”. That’s never going to happen. Rather, it’s that you should be finding some friends to play the game with when you want to compete in a more than casual way. Ideally, you shouldn’t be getting your competitive HotS experiences from Storm League, but rather, finding a team and signing up for one of the regularly occurring HotS Tournament Leagues like Heroes Hearth or Nexus Gaming.
2 Likes
Well, nobody wins just by looking at the minimap.
What are you even looking for on the minimap?
How does what you see influence your actions in the game?
If all it does is make you ping your teammates then i guess it’s not a lot…
Just because you look at something doesn’t mean you gain all the information and make correct conclusions/decisions…
People say “macro” is they key and one better plays a hero that can do camps but nobody just wins games by taking camps… there is a lot more to it. Some players even lose matches because they go for camps at the wrong time. You see, general answers are just kinda useless. “Play good macro, do camps” is pretty much a bad advice because it’s just too generalized.
The key to win against bronze player is to abuse them. Bronze players will do so many mistakes and if you let them do it unpunished then it’s you not doing well enough. It doesn’t matter how shiny your stats are because everyone can farm stats without winning and then blame the teammates because their stats aren’t as good as yours.
The difficult part is to know when the enemy team is actually doing a mistake. Low MMR players might not see the opportunity to punish an enemy for something because they lack the game sense. They might even focus too much on themselves not trying to make mistakes themselves so they don’t even have the capacity to think about what is going on within the enemy team. Then they check their stats to see if they perform well xD If their stats are high because they are araming out of their mind then they also think they did everything they could and the stats suggest that they deserve a higher rank xD
Players with good game sense know/can guess what the enemy team is doing during the whole match. Still you don’t win just because of that alone, you need to be able to make use of this information. Any strategy game is a game of information. Enemy players have a mini map too → If they are able to see you on the map a lot you give them a lot of information which reduces your chance to make anything happen drastically… Sometimes not showing yourself can have a huge impact and it doesn’t even produce stats…Sometimes showing yourself is an excellent way of deceiving the enemy team.
One of the easiest example i can give:
You know which player is easy to kill for you and you guess where he is going next —> set up a little trap/intercept him. Players think you aren’t here anymore once they don’t see you on their screen for 5 seconds. The chance of him face-checking your bush is extremely high and if he does it you get a free kill. Still you don’t win just because of one kill at a random time during the match but it can have a huge impact. You already need to have a plan on what to do once you got that free kill. You want to use the momentum like a snowball that starts rolling…