How to solve a problem like Tyrande?

I love the sound of this.

Tyrande has had so many versions. I do remember one where she was a hybrid where you could build for either damage or heal. That may have been my favorite iteration as I enjoyed the flexibility. I wonder though if they would do such a thing now, it would be hard to slot her into QM.

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Give her healing at the start and gradually build up both damage and healing by the end. Sustained damage is so underrated in hots and right now mages rule. Itā€™s a burst meta for the longest time and marksmen (exception was pre patch cassia) are weak. Sure you want a marksman on your team but they arenā€™t the star players at all. When you have gazno ult and the teamfight ends in less than 5 seconds you donā€™t have much time to auto attack

That is quite true. She doesnā€™t provide enough reward for the risk she provides. Itā€™s like design of hypercarry except you work your azz off to only barely reach point where average healers are. After she was nerfed she was barely touched in HGC(same went to HL/TL/SL at high ranks). Now in CCL she was only picked in healer chokes and she lost all 3 games that I saw her in badly. She is a hero devs have forgotten to even exist at this point. Only changes she has seen last few years are for bad talents nobody still picks. Only exception is the level 1 owl they buffed as it works with rest of owl talents that were already picked before that for added synergy.

I agree with your suggestion. The trait feels worthless now when game is full of -10 to -15 armor effects and they no longer stack(same revert should be done for Varian colossus btw).
Lunar flare is follow up ability but neither the damage nor the stun duration of it justify that. Make it faster ability with current numbers so itā€™s not follow up by design or reduce the damage and increase CC so itā€™s reasonable follow up.
AA is such integral part of her kit that it should do meaningful damage. Adjust Eluneā€™s Chosen and Darnassian numbers for it. Also make Huntressā€™ Fury work with other AA talents, nobody is going to pick the spread when it only hits baseline damage. Only thing it works for is more CDR which moonlit does more reliably and constantly.

6 Likes

Hunterā€™s Mark range needs to increase.

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I feel like they should separate her out into a pair of heroes.

Which one stays tyrande? Idk.

But if she is going to have a meaningful heal, she isnā€™t ever going to be able to have anything beyond a very-high-skill damage option.

Just my two cents in regards to people asking for rework.

It actually did recently, but blizzard nerfed it, presumably because it let trait build Tyrande target a merc in the middle of a giant minion wave and just delete everything, let alone using it on objective in TotSQ or AP.

I donā€™t play a lot of Tyrande anymore.
I feel she has become very reliant on her other keys (trait and 1,2,3 keys) to heal the team. However, I feel her damage is still too low (the way I can play her without dying at least, which Iā€™ll explain).
Her ults are good, but not exceptional like they sometimes were.
Her stun relies heavily on having a tank that can CC before you use it.
Her owl build has be nerfed a lot. I remember a time when I used only the owl build and had a lot of fun sniping people across the map, which isnā€™t possible as much as it was before.
I also feel that sheā€™s way different from other heroes as she heals and deals damage by auto-attacking from a distance (which is short and she has low hp), with few ways of self-peeling or escaping, and almost no mobility.

Donā€™t get me wrong, sheā€™s incredible in the right hands.

Itā€™s just that I donā€™t really want to spend that much time learning how to position with Tyrande and how to be the most effective through AAs.
If anything, I think I would only play her if she was less AA focused and used more spells. However, I do understand that some people like her the way she is, and there are plenty other healers around, so I donā€™t miss her that much.

I remember when her Starfall had a much larger radius, more damage, more slow and was global. This was when she was a healer too. Her Shadowstalk then was IMO better as it gave an instant heal followed by a heal over time.

I donā€™t mind that at all, yes Tyrande needs good initiations, but thatā€™s always been so, she follows up.

That was when she was a support and had infinite stacking owl quest. When they changed it the Devs said it was fun, but not healthy for the game. I tend to agree with them there. It was a bit of a gimmick.

I would normally agree with you. Outside of Tanks/Bruisers, I have much more fun with ability based heroes where AA isnā€™t the main focus. For bow wielding Tyrande, it really suits her fantasy.

Tyrande is the healer I first enjoyed playing, Iā€™m not as invested as the good Dr. Logan was in support Tassadar, but close. I really appreciate all the great ideas and thoughts people have posted here so far. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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They didnā€™t nerf it. They changed it because nobody was(and still isnā€™t) picking it. The spread area was minimal for PvE targets , less than third of what it is now for heroes only. Even with it she still couldnā€™t wave clear effectively nor jungle because her damage is awful. It actually used to be level 16 talent originally but obviously nobody was stupid enough to pick it there. Then they moved it to level 7 which usually makes talents must pick. Even there it couldnā€™t compete due to how bad it was and still is. Now the purpose is same as moonlit arrows: get CDR only it works through marked hero to nearby heroes so itā€™s very unreliable and works in PvP only. If it worked with AA talents it would be ok talent as long term option.

This was the most baffling thing about the rework, to me. They made her so much more dependent on her basic attacks, and they subsequently removed almost all of its damage.

If she had some punching power with her basic attacks, sheā€™d work as a DPS/Healer hybrid, which she used to be. Sheā€™d be able to make some space for herself and chase off some pressure put on her. Most tanks would not be able to scratch her if she had basic attacks that did more than a gentle breeze.

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Because Iā€™m not a great Tyrande player, I had to approach this a bit more analytically. And my opinion is that even if we account the fact that Tyrande is notoriously dependent on team coordination, her numbers are just too low. Along the years the old bird has just been hit with a hammer one time too many.

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Owl build is a meme, if you donā€™t pick the ranged E then Iā€™m not sure why is sheā€™s being picked in the first place for this, we are going full circle over the owl build again.

The level 13/16 owls are good though.

But my point is, ig itā€™s necessary for her to be buffed her utility must be nerfed, it cannot go other ways really, sheā€™s provides a lot of utility for a healer in comparison to others and that makes her a difficult option to balance, I think she got better the moment the cleanse went from 1, then 7 and then 16 but there has to be more of readjustment for any change to happen.

4 Likes

So thereā€™s a few issues with Tyrande:

  1. When sheā€™s good, then sheā€™s meta and sheā€™s part of what stagnates the meta.
  2. Her various iterations tend to have been dominated by 1 ā€˜buildā€™ ā€“ added note, of the healers, sheā€™s one that is actively defined by her builds while several other healers arenā€™t ā€“ and then that one build gets nerfed, and sheā€™s back out of the meta.
  3. Tyrande tends to be more an enabler hero than not; the whole team benefits from a hunterā€™s mark to deal damage while say, an anduin pull or malf mana only benefits one hero at time. So the min/max impact she can have tends to swing wider than heroes of a similar slot.
  4. She doesnā€™t lockdown targets as long as other healers can now. Roots and sleeps last longer, and some supports have chain cc that trumps Tyrande.
  5. She has limited tools for saving allies.

Healers tend to break down into:

  • how well they save allies (ancestral + cleanse, Leap of Faith, etc)
  • how well they lock down an enemy target
  • how well they can keep themselves alive
  • other (waveclear)

Tyrande has been nerfed on pretty much all fronts and has one of the worst sets of self-protection in HotS atm.

Some some of the earlier outlets to getting her back in the swing of things would simply undo some of the nerfs sheā€™s had. However, reverting nerfs may only bring back the ā€˜problemā€™ (depending on how theyā€™re defined) and not really ā€˜fixā€™ the issue.

On a different take, some heroes doesnā€™t really need ā€˜changesā€™ themselves, other aspects of the meta shift, and then heroes turn out to be sleeper OP, qqqq. I wouldnā€™t say thatā€™s so much the case for Tyrande, but if a pro team decided Trueshot is the make-or-break of their team and get some wins, then suddenly sheā€™d be ā€˜metaā€™ again regardless of nerf/buff/discussion or whatever.

I will say that I think some individual talents continue to be lackluster and arenā€™t likely to change her status as they are, so those could be touched, but on the other hand, some of the concept of her ā€˜buildā€™ design may be less fluid that other picks. But the ā€˜bestā€™ outlet would probably be to find something ā€˜uniqueā€™ to give back to Tyrande and cement a ā€œWhy we picked this heroā€ that seems to have been a bit lost.

  • Trait talents have been under picked and underwhelming
  • The talent rearrangement (pushing out some of her early game advantages) are really hurt some of her power progression in the game.

Hunterā€™s Mark used to debuff harder, and that was a big deal for picking her, esp when only a few heroes could also debuff -armor. Since other heroes can do it (esp across multiple roles) she isnā€™t contributing as much team benefit and then feels lacking on her solo contributions.

SO options for ā€˜fixingā€™ Tyrande:

  1. rework many/most trait talents.
  • Have a talent to increase how much -armor Hunterā€™s Mark debuffs
    • It could be a flat boost, or a conditional boost
      • eg. Each unique damage source increases the -armor of Mark
  • Baseline or Talent shift that changes Mark to deal 15% of damage the target takes for the duration.
    • This would allow Mark to boost %-based damage, so even if the duration was only 2 seconds (which is still longer than many other sources of -armor) that could give her unique combo appeal again.
  • Change Hunterā€™s Fury to bounce Tyrandeā€™s attack from a non-marked target to the marked one.
    • The splash damage as is doesnā€™t really benefit from her other talents, is a lackluster damage increase, and doesnā€™t really suit the demands of what the debuff intends compared to what Tyrande can do with it (sustain vs burst)
      • Having only two targets hit by the ā€˜bounceā€™ limits the worst-case scenarios of her balance and it provides a bit more safety for to then be able to ā€˜attackā€™ whatever target is around, but still benefit from hitting a marked enemy.
  1. Re-balance her heroics.
  • Some suggest removing the stealth from shadow stalk (put it on a new protoss hero) so the heal timing/effect can get boosted
  • Some suggest Starfall needs more oomph returned.
  1. Tweak her attack speed and cdr.
  • She has a 1.33 speed, so having a faster attack for more cdr means she has to be in more danger to keep attacking a target when a slower attack speed would make it easier to poke/stutter for cdr.
  1. Move Trueshot Aura back to 16, and then change Darnassian Archery back into a lvl 1 aa quest, only have it be on heroes (extra stacks on either takedowns, marked targets, or a takedown while a target is marked) with an active ias reward. That is, no ā€˜infiniteā€™ damage, but get her some aa skirmishing power early that carries over to the late game instead of having an all-or-none lvl 16++ type thang.

Cuz ya know having new lvl 1 quest talents super makes everything better for heroes that want to attack stuff :smiley:

3 Likes

A slower attack speed wouldnā€™t help. It would seem wasteful but sheā€™d gain more cdr if she attacked one hundred times a second and after 20 hits the player intentionally stopped standing still and moved.

If we lower her attack speed then her auto attacks need to count for more cdr per auto attack.

Just give her more auto attack damage so she outscales everyone else in net power but not power or healing specifically. Sheā€™d do less damage than the top marksmen and less healing than the best healer (lucio) but sheā€™d put up a good fight in outhealing the average healer (our scaled). With tyrande kit being auto attack centered she has to place herself in risk like marksman normally do so Iā€™d be for this change and also due to a ā€œhypercarryā€ hero that simply outperforms other picks late game

As said before give her a global team heal ult. Thereā€™s so many options blizzard can go so I donā€™t think they need ideas. They just need to execute an idea.

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Just a thought experiment:
What if Hunterā€™s Mark slows the target for itā€™s duration or True shot aura increases the movement speed?

OT:
Is gedankenexperiment really a loan word used in English?
While searching for a translation for the german word Gedankenexperiment, I stumbled across it.

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I actually wonder why she can heal in the first place, she never did it back in warcraft 3, she was more like a huntress. That being said, i would rework her so that she was much more like her wc3 version.

I would remove hunterā€™s mark from her D, maybe make it a talent, and i would remove her healing Q.
Then i would make her passive be just like it was in wc3 where she would go invisible while standing still. I think her Q should be Searing arrows but with a twist, just like they made Kel thuzadā€™s W much more interesting in hots than in wc3 but basically identical. Make it a skillshot somehow i guess. Also i would make her team invisibility ult make her ride her tiger for some time (added ms, naturally, and maybe a strong melee in addition to her ranged arrows cuz the tiger bites).

I just find hunters mark is the most unsatisfying button to press in the entire game, does it even have an animation?

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Yes, like Iā€™ve written in my first post:

It is a red, tribal symbol.

2 Likes

Hiya Xen, as usual youā€™ve artfully articulated the issues with Tyrande I tried to touch on in my initial post.

As you noted, when Tyrande is good, she dominates the meta. This isnā€™t speculation on your part, just a matter of fact when looking at her history. You also encapsulated succinctly why I love playing Tyrande so much. She can be labeled both as a support and as a healer, two of my favorite roles. You pointed out Tyrande is a great enabler of a team (support) and she has her healing tools, even if they fall short compared to others healers. I did note this was a problem in my OP, buffing a hero who has so much utility is no easy task.

I too would like her identity to be more defined. She has many talents that are hardly picked, and the one Nerf that should be reverted is to her trait. You noted that armor reduction is no longer unique to Tyrande and many heroes can do so at a higher value. I think this is one nerf that could be rolled back without making Tyrande instantly a meta pick. Youā€™ve covered many approaches that could be taken to addressing her trait and itā€™s associated talents, leaving me with nothing to add but my approval. :+1:

What I hope doesnā€™t happen is yet another full rework for Tyrande. Some individual talents and her talent tree need to be looked at. Her level 4 is still dominated (for good reason) by Eluneā€™s Chosen. I would remove this talent and rework that entire tier. If not a removal of EC, the other two talents need to be removed to find something that meaningfully competes with EC.

Both of her heroics have felt lackluster compared to the healer version of her pre-support rework, which had more impactful heroics. The healing on Shadowstalk was higher including a burst heal, Starfall did more damage, larger radius, more slow and was global. Iā€™m not asking for those specific changes, but Iā€™m on board with your idea of removing the stealth on Shadowstalk and giving it a bigger heal. Personally I would prefer it to be a mixture of a burst heal and a heal overtime. With Starfall Iā€™d be fine with an increased radius, increased slow or damage, not both.

The owl build that many people want from her support days, is not something I think she needs. Without taking her level 1, I still often snipe low health fleeing opponents, so you can still do that if itā€™s your thing. As you know, Sentinel is her primary scouting tool not a primary damage ability and so it should be. Her Sentinel talent on 13 is a meaningful pick, adding more utility to an already powerful talent. Even if they wanted to rework Tyrande into a support again, I would be completely against making Sentinel an infinite stacking global sniping tool. The devs commented they removed this as it wasnā€™t a healthy mechanic.

This is a fair point, but many heroes arenā€™t translated from their various IPā€™s with identical kits. The last thing we need is Tyrande to be reworked into another ranged assassin. Iā€™m not sure how successful she would be as a plain support, because her support version (outside of QM) was picked in about 1% of ranked games, which was why they reworked her and returned her to her healer role.

2 Likes

She needs a rework. Much like tass who does great now he has been completely changed.

I disagree, I think Tyrande is on her maybe 5th rework, not counting many, many mini reworks. I think she just needs some talent changes/updates, some tweaks here and there.

You mentioned Tassadar, what would you want for Tyrande? A full role rework? I remind you they did that already with her as support and it failed.

5 Likes