Nothing suspecious about it. People want to play what they want even heroes they are trash with and then you just happen to be placed in a team with them cause you are within mmr range of him. There are no boogie man out here forcing you to lose. You just happen to get into a team with people that choosed to play a hero they are bad with while you choosed to play a hero you are good at. Then you get those kind of games where you think the MM are dragging you down. But in reality you are just being paired with people within your mmr range but they choosed to play a hero they are bad with.
And what proof do you got to that claim ? People que up with what they like to play even tho they play very bad with it. Thats just the disadvantage of QM. Nothing new about that. You should also remember the quality of players have gone downhil cause most of the good players already left this game and left you with below average noobs that dont know better.
To be fair, what you are describing is confirmation bias. As mentioned, you would have to do this analysis on every match for all 10 players over a large number of games to determine just how significant it is to have a 30% win rate player on a team.
If you aren’t doing this every single match, you would need to indicate sample rates, error bars, and several other values for it to be at all statistically relevant.
That is not meant to be an insult, but an explanation why people would be reasonably skeptical.
Understanding and observation are based on previous experiences and prioritization in those; since everyone has different experience and priorities, there isn’t going to be a ‘common’ “sense” to be had without “proof” to offset implicit bias. Or rather, “proof” is what allows for “common sense”.
[Inertial force]** are explanations where the ‘sense’ deviates from observation; simply relying on an assertion of ‘common sense’ is often going to draw a conclusion that is the apart from what is actually happening.
One example of that can be seen from “[The Dress]**” a 2015 viral internet argument where people fought over a dress being black/white and blue/gold. In that particular case, there is a ‘real’ answer with only one other alternative. However, in a game like HotS, there are several other variables, outcomes, considerations that can all be neglected options blasted into overexposed light that then gets the inexperienced (or ‘common’) sense to draw a conclusion apart from what is ‘actually’ happening.
In my previous post, I was referencing “[Lanchester’s Laws]***” when I mentioned RTS games used to show how small advantages lead to big victories. The “common sense” gets people to convince themselves that a system is rigged against them instead of considering other factors in play that can realize that an opportunity was more “fair” than they realized despite the result having a dramatically different result.
People have to learn to see gradations, otherwise they argue over polarized extremes.
You didn’t debunk anything. You made a statement of what you think is happening. I’m merely stating in the sentence I quoted, is just not true.
You can of course be matched with a troll, smurf, or bad player, especially if you play at lower ranks, but the frequency at which you get them does not increase because you got “better” nor does the enemy have less of them. So let’s break this down.
Trolling happens at all levels. And what one considers trolling is going to be subjective. I’d predict that it happens less the higher MMR you have. But even then, I’ve played with grandmasters in QM that were really terrible and didn’t care one bit about what was going on in the map. The fact that they just happened to be awful in my game, doesn’t mean they were awful in all their games (or ranked games). The game can’t predict when a player is going to pick that hero they are terrible with or that this is going to be the one match they are going to ignore the minimap and help their team.
Smurfing throws the whole matchmaker off and has nothing to do with how much better you are. The system can’t predict who is a smurf to make your game harder.
And like I said before, bad players can seem bad because you aren’t able to cover for their mistakes, which will be harder to do the higher your MMR is. The way they are bad in your game might also not be bad in how they are to reflect their MMR. There were games where I would play hammer, one of my better heroes, but in some matches, it looked like I was playing trash if you were to just go by stats, but that often had to do more with comp, or whether allies would play around a hammer more so than whether my performance was different. So in the games I lost, to the untrained eye, I was an easy scapegoat and the “bad”, but I was still winning most of my other games on her.
I can show you a screenshot of something that is so disheartening via discord. Even if it’s all in one’s mind it’s still so dang sussy! Because really the only time I have a problem in a match is when more then one person is acting a fool, the problem is having more games when over one person is acting up then not.
They don’t even need to be “acting up” it can be a case of being vastly out skilled by the enemy. The Argument there is the enemy team will have it’s fool player too, but more times then not their worst player is as good or better then our best player. It stops feeling like a coin flip and more a dice roll and that’s not 50.50 at all
How consistent is this, really? Everyone has streaks of wins or losses, that is just the nature of coin flips. 100 heads in a row is very unlikely, but not impossible. This doesn’t mean that gravity is actually an algorithm designed to “force” a tails if you get too many heads in a row!
Everyone has a different definition of “acting up”, and everyone “acts up” themselves eventually. For example, I was trying to learn Samuro last week Friday. I am not good at the hero. By any definition. I won the first match purely because the rest of my team was better than the enemy team. I was the fool player for sure. I lost the next 4 games, not because I had fools on my team, not because Blizzard thought I needed to have my MMR reduced, but because I really am bad at Samuro. Now, here is the $10,000 question: Were the other people on my team targeted by Blizz to get my bad Samuro, or was it just dumb luck? If I had been on a hero I am not just learning, those could easily have been 4 wins in a row! (Fun fact, I decided to stop inflicting my terrible Samuro on people and queued as Diablo the next match, and in spite of having a 12 death Stitches on my team, because of course we needed two tanks >.<, my team won. If that is what Blizzard considers a “free win for forced 50%”, no thanks. My back hurt for sure after that one. lol)
Are you checking all 5 players on the enemy team every time you get a free win yourself? Can you see that player having a godly win streak getting smacked with fools every time? That is what you should see if it really is programmed into the matchmaker.
My guess is that what you are seeing is normal bad luck hitting, and some months it hits more frequently than others because random be like that. Things to look for in your match history are the time and day you play, because I know I see far more fools late at night. especially late Saturday nights, when those who are, er, chemically assisted are more obvious.
Losing games sucks, losing games because of someone trolling/afking/inting sucks twice as much, but in the end, life ain’t fair, it doesn’t require any sort of nefarious program… Some days you are the windshield, some days you are the bug.
I would have needed to start keeping records of this years back to have something to show but I didn’t have any doubts years back. At most it was an eye brow raise when oddities would happen. My ADD barely allows me to write and record my vitals down for my PD nurse. I’m not going to keep it up for something that not connected to my health…maybe I should start for my mental health?
for # 2 one person acting a fool shouldn’t do too much harm because it normally doesn’t for me it’s when more then one person is being a trouble maker is when thing really go belly up. And yes It could be me being the team stone but as long it’s just me and I get my crap together before game’s end we are fine.
And for #3 I said the enemy team has it’s bad player but when their worst is playing as good or better then our best it’s stop feeling like we have a 50% chance of winning.
This is a very fair assessment, no MM system is perfect, all have flaws. These flaws were far less noticeable and prevalent when Hots was in its prime. Naturally now that Hots is retired, has fewer active players, and a huge smurf problem, the flaws are more conspicuous.
There are enough examples of streamers and people here on the forums who have climbed from low ranks to high, but that was Ranked/SL/HL. When it comes to QM, we already know the MM uses MMR averaging as a workaround to form matches more quickly. This can sometimes result in uneven matchups, but as you said, you don’t need to fall back on a conspiracy to point out that this system is sometimes imperfect.
This topic is such ad nauseum and it gets shutdown easily by actually smurfing ironically.
When you smurf you have no MMR, you are queued against new players, very very very bad players or vs AI players coming out of the wood work into QM (which are also bad, no offense to anyone who vs AI here), so you win A LOT, so much your win rate is literally inflated.
And because you keep winning, the MMR increases to consider better players against you, so if you are really good at winning A LOT you will face HARDER players, so you are more CHALLENGED against BETTER players.
I should add to this that if you are at the +10% its hard to match make you with similar players because the MMR has to expand to get you matches quick.
Which means you are going to play with Platinums and Golds, maybe Bronze, both on your team and their team and you have to cope and seethe about it but its ok you are very good at the game, you should win this easily and I believe in you.
I just want to add it’s fine to be Bronze or any rank, so long as you don’t make wild claims and complaints that MM is “forcing” you to remain in your current rank.
Hey Hoku, I will eventually address this whole thread but I thought I’d start with someone reasonable.
I want to clarify that I rarely do this, and it is only in circumstances when someone is throwing, and also extremely volatile with speech, where I want to see if this is a one off, or a habit. More than often it’s someone who has lost many games in their history and their habit of abandoning games is probably a direct result of that.
As for the confirmation theory, I want to assume that everyone I play with wants to win, I don’t blame people for losses. So going into some persons profile after they threw the game isn’t confirming that I lost because of them.
We might have different ideas on confirmation bias, but to be honest I don’t blame other people for my losses, if I look some dudes profile because they said ‘you’re all scrubs and I have a 70% win rate’ I want to see if they’re telling the truth. That’s it, I’m willing accept losses, but I won’t be ok with trolls and liars.
This is what I assumed your majesty, Queen Brightwing the 3rd. I did feel it was important to put it in text. I know that the team making can be finicky, but I’m willing to deal with it. As most players are. I completely agree which I said, I don’t think the system is out to get you it was just a consequence of random MM.
I wish good luck to you BW the 3rd hopefully we can enjoy HoTS for the next millennium.
It’s a ‘typical’ youtube ‘detective’ that cites about 3 items as "proof’ and then jumps the logic ship to draw a conclusion to shock/offend their audience by pretending they ‘proved’ their forgone conclusion.
The video opens with a math gimmick to demonstrate a ‘magician’s force’ where the multiplication and division cancel each-other out and make most choices conform to a predictable answer, therefore impressing the audience that they had a ‘choice’ and the magician (or mentalist) could make a correct ‘prediction’.
He then grabs a stream-session quote from a former executive developer for fps games, two patent quotes, and rumbles it together to claim that players don’t actually have a choice in online shooter games, the ai just hands the them wins to get them to pay and play by manipulating their ‘skill’ to maximize how much they put into the game.
People then take these claims and assume it must therefore apply to any and all online multiplayer games without thinking through how that could possibly be implemented.
Since a number of players already feel games “cheat,” the fear that they were ‘forced’ to lose, deal less damage or ‘miss’ their “skillshots” are now magically explained by the usual cherry-picking on stuff too long for the casual to read into and debunk.
