Nice,I had a mistake on typing ,the word (all) i delete it just now.
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I think this isnt realy your decision entirely. After all, number balancing is something you cannot realy do without having an active test environment. You at most can state that you want his health to behave like X or Y.
What the effective value becomes can then still be decided by the average engagement range etc.
For example, if we would take murky, and have made him ranged, he might have had only 50% of his current health, or 60%. We cant realy tell as we cant test, but we can be sure it would have been significantly less.
Therefor, you should at most aim towards a certain health value idea, rather than actualy stating his health.
And i think that his health should be similar to a regular healer. So i would suspect the value to be somewhere around 1500hp-1800hp (whitemane is 1500, anduin is 1800). But since he cant realy self heal a lot and has closer self root requirements, i suspect it would be on the higher end.
But actual values i cant tell, maybe his rooting requires 2000hp to be fair, or his buffs are strong enough to make 1500hp fair. That requires playtesting.
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thats a really smart way to look at it !
healthwise , this is what the healers had in term of HP ( based on the big data compilation i had made a while ago, its out of date but numbers shouldnt be too far off )
| Hero | Level 20 |
|---|---|
| Whitemane | 3070 |
| Lucio | 3162 |
| Brightwing | 3180 |
| Lili | 3290 |
| Tyrande | 3314 |
| Malfurion | 3344 |
| Morales | 3388 |
| Ana | 3505 |
| Anduin | 3651 |
| Alexstraza | 3724 |
| Auriel | 3728 |
| Deckard | 3728 |
| Stukov | 3871 |
| Stukov ( spine Launcher ) | 3871 |
| Rehgar | 4386 |
| Kharazim | 4445 |
| Uther | 4550 |
| Alexstraza(dragon) | 5015 |
with 1630 he would be just about half the HP of Lili .
he is a support that doesnt really focus on healing but rather providing shield through aura. that would likely mean he would need to stay close to tanks or behave a bit like lucio . anduin seems a good mid-range like you mentioned.
I used the level 0 or 1 values on that. So my numbers are somewhat halved of the level 20 value.
And for the level 20 value, if your idea was 1500, then i would say that this is far too low and makes him excessively vulnerable. Abathur has ~700 base hp (so around 1400 at 20). Which would then be very similar to karax. You dont want your support to be instantly blown up as soon as he faces a mage. Even more if he has self roots into his kit.
Even the lost vikings would exceed karax if karax would get only 800 base hp. Eric starts with 840 and olaf has 1540. Just to compare how squishy he would become.
A support should never be able to get instantly blown up by a pyroblast at full health. Or have a basic way to mitigate/reduce the damage in his basic kit.
The vikings might need a talent for that, because of how they work. But those are the only heroes that have this vulnerability, and even then its only 33% of the heroes being killed instead of 100% of a hero.
Wow, this looks very detailed; just saw it now slightly delayed.
I did not have time yet to look at it in detail, but his Q already sounds pretty interesting conceptually.
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thank you !
do take your time to go through it as im concious that i did wrote quite a giant wall of text there lol 
( which is usually a recurring problem with me 
)
It might be more useful to use the level zero stats or provide them too as most other sources do that and it´s easier for comparison.
I like the concept, but there are a few issues for me. First would be that Q is usually a spammable ability, which is not quite that with 10 seconds of cooldown. This could easily be amended by swapping it with another ability.
Secondarily it is completely bound to being on or near a lane, which is usually not the case when doing an objective. So maybe add bit of damage and warp in a unit type when targeting heroes ? Somewhat a variant of Xul´s prison spawning skeletons. With the 10 second cooldown he should not be able to spawn too many units, alternatively the units spawned on heroes could be temporary (say 5 seconds?).
If he can self-cast this, i would at very least exclude this ability from being affected by itself. Otherwise this has the potential to become silly, if it not already is.
I´m not quite sure what to think about this one.
This requires a lot of clicking to setup, but is also potentially very powerful. Imagine overlaying all three lasers on the same path through enemies trapped in Leoric´s or Zarya´s heroic. Or clearing three lanes at once by having them mow through the mercs/minions on each.
So this is effectively on a 90 second cooldown as it affects itself?
This is passive? That sounds pretty insane, as unless you engage when they just met up you will always engage vs a ton of shields vs a team with Karax.
Ok, i now get why the basic cooldowns for him seem rather big and might to revise what i said about his Q-cooldown and applicability to heroes.
I always play Mephisto with the globe talent. I think he would be friends with this talent and a super-massive annoyance to anybody who is up against this combo 
I like structure interaction, and this essentially brings back the tower changes locally. I´m in for it.
I can tell people would play him as a solo lane pusher with this build.
Essentially Hanzo´s old “limit armor to zero” on an AoE that also silences? Guess it´s balanced by not having a knockback inherently.
This would be spawning some threads; i´m very sure of that.
I like the basic idea, but would like to make a different suggestion as it has been hanging around my mind for a while. What about an ability lend from Arbiters that cloaks friendly mercs within his trait´s radius?
Well ok, forget my idea about hero applicability or make it not apply to it
What is the priority list for that? Structures first? Anyways i´m all for more minion/merc/structure interactions.
Those all look pretty damn strong.
true, to give you an idea, 1630 HP at level 20 is about how much HP murky has at level 20 as well. if we add the total passive that karax can produce on himself ( which would take 18 seconds in total if no interruptions ) it would give him a wooping 2530 hp ! ( whitemane is the healer with the least amount of HP at level 20 with about 3000hp , uther is around 4500 )
the idea wasnt to create a summoner but rather someone to assist in different ways, so the goal of that was to create some protoss units and let them push / siege , or use your talents to push the lane faster. since the minions are not on timers, they would effectively be able to push lanes unassisted . with other talents, karax would be able to easily help and siege multiple lanes at once if he had proper rotations. but given how frail he is, he would be highly prone to ambushes, even a 1v1 would almost guarantee death since his fighting abilities are really limited.
that was the idea, requiring set up , but great potential in different aspects. 
but yes, that entomb and triple lasers from solar lance would be epic !
yup !
yup, but you also got to think that the shield would take 18 seconds to be full on Karax, and 9 seconds on allies. also, any allies leaving the aura range would start to decay that shield. added to the fact that Karax has low HP , is places him almost directly in the actions melee warriors of its team.
i thought the risks would had balanced out, i guess i was wrong lol 
thats also why its chrono boost affected him and itself, all due to the large cooldowns.
these two could very likely become best friends lol
awesome 
!
they could , but its not all he’s good for , however hes made to be able to compensate / synergize with his team/ map. if lane pushing is needed, he will definitely be able to help on that !
sounds about right, also, karax has no slow, stuns or knockbacks. the most he offers in term of CC is 0.5 silence and some blind later with talent.
very likely 
i like that !
yeah! it means i got my idea right and balance ! ( i hope lol )
it’d be based on range. which ever is the closest damaged.
but do they look too strong or balanced given his weaknesses ?
also, thanks for reviewing the whole thing , i know that was a big wall of text !
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these concept is fine but somebody will followed when hero is confirmed. due to causing that Mercy has still didn’t confirmed as hero. I finally signed Orphea into Tassadar (via Chronicle).
Are you kidding? It looks like it’s very poorly thought out.
Q is pretty much like Sylvanas Possession.
Which isn’t bad in itself, but there’s a reason it’s an extra ability tied to a talent rather than a base ability.
It doesn’t let the player DO anything.
Look at Azmo’s summons.
They appear right in front of him, thus can be used to block skill shots.
They appear moving in the direction you indicate, thus they can offer vision such as in bushes.
You can use it out of lane, so you can throw them at objectives or merc camps.
It’s basically the most simple summoning ability in the game, but it still has some degree of depth.
This really does not.
W is not bad in itself, with some numbers adjustments. Range is ridiculously short. Being a basic ability rather than a bonus ability like Malf’s trait means this hero again is finding himself not able to really DO much, especially with that cooldown.
This kind of ability could work on a hero, even possibly one with a second support ability since it can be self cast, but it doesn’t fit here.
E. 750 damage on a basic ability. That’s Pyroblast levels of damage you can apparently use on Structures and Merc camps. On a 12 second cooldown. LOLOLOLOLOL
The way Purification Nova works could function as a heroic.
If the damage was dropped massively, maybe even as a basic ability.
R1 Could probably end up in the game, but not with those absurd damage numbers.
R2 Is kind of what Bloodlust is to Stim, but for Nanoboost. There could probably be a balance to it.
Trait Like most things here, absurdly powerful. 100 shields per second… Brightwing trait heals 105 every 4 seconds, Lucio’s Amp It Up healing is 112 and that uses mana and only lasts 3 seconds. Just the shields alone is way to freakin strong, and then there’s a bunch of other things tacked on.
I’m not going to bother going over the talents.
Maybe with things toned down to realistic levels and Q changed to just warp in the summoned unit over time or something, the hero could be interesting, if only because self chrono and purification would let them actually do things.
i see your point and agree it doesnt let the player do much.
you do however get to chose which minions you create out of it and since they wouldnt have a timer , it means their pushing potential can be much higher if the enemy team doesnt do some cleaning and lets it go out of hand.
the range was to make sure it wouldnt be OP or anything and he would need to get in close if he wanted to support the team.
the idea was to enable allies by shaving off 4 seconds of a target’s cooldown every 12 seconds. ( plus some added bonuses if talented. )
even though on its own it is definitely weak it can enable other players for target lockdown and kills , saving allies ect…
i have to fully disagree with you there.
purification nova’s damage is nowhere near pyroblast’s damage.
in fact purification nova would require Karax to be channeling for the duration and hoping he doesn’t get CC’d before it detonates.
meanwhile, other character can deal more damage AND move around at the same time.
here are some numbers to illustrate that point.
Kael Tas
pyroblast : 2’151
flame strike : 747
flame strike convection : 957 ( 1’914 if hit by the second strike (+ 8% x2 if secondary hero was within radius both times ) )
li-ming
untalented orb : 732
talented orb : 1’292
untalented magic missiles : 1’182
Jaina
untalented blizzard : 933
and also, do keep in mind that all 3 of those heroes have healthpools significantly larger than Karax. kael tas having more than double his healthpool.
he’s on par with murky. add to that his 900 max armor but it does take 18 seconds to fully load up.
again, i just cant see your justification to call that pyroblast levels of damage or anywhere close as a function for an ult.
other ults have shown larger numbers with less set up times.
what makes those numbers absurd in comparison ?
Artanis’ ult actually deals more damage .
even if we have an enemy get hit by all 3 lasers when casted.
wait for 3 second in the lasters then walk in the same direction of the lasers purposely to get hit by all 3 at the same time, Artanis still deals more damage.
AND can recast if the target dies at level 20.
the lvl 20 upgrade where it leaves a trail a flames could be compared with deathwing if you wanted. thing is , deathwing deals 110 per seconds over a significantly larger section. and those deal 85 only to the section of which the laser traveled and are not stackable.
that is a fair point, but its armor, not healing.
meaning a almost dead target will only have armor padded on them , it doesnt automatically puts them at full health. so if any hero is missing anything more than 900 hp, they will have to get their health through other means / talents, while a healer if your out more than 900 hp, they can easily fix that.
it also decays. you dont start losing hp because your are leaving close proximity of your healer. its not like it remains there indefinitely either. Karax would have to stay close to the action but given he’s got the health of a murky , thats how theorically he was planned out to be balanced.
thats how i envisioned him when doing the concept, he’s an enabler and mitigate damage for his team, he’s not meant to be dealing ton’s of damage or healing any target to full HP in a matter of a few seconds , plus he is doomed to almost certain death if having to face a 1v1 or getting ganked since he has no escape and super low health pool .
That diffirence is common enough that this isnt an issue at all. Some heroes have a self heal as talent (morales), some as basic ability (raynor).
Xul has a sort of possession as trait.
Lili says hi.
This is why Q can still exist as ability. I do agree its rather dull, but it can still be part of its design since the hero was targeted around self rooting, this might be usable during that without causing interupts. This is a part that is relevant to how the kit can work together.
That you dont read talents is normal. Outside of the level 20 talents and a few key utility talents they usualy dont matter much and are part of number balancing. Something might appear strong/weak on paper but end up the opposite way, or get amplified even further than you might have expected (in which case the talent should be removed).
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I didnt even thought of lili lol
You dont even aim anything with her , ever !
Pyroblast base damage is 810. It may scale at 5% instead of 4%, but that’s still not too much higher than what you have listed.
184 damage per second compared to 150 damage per second times three and plus 650 times three.
Maybe you’re using the level 10 damage rather than the level 0 damage, but I think that makes things appear awkward for comparisons.
Shields are almost always better than healing.
Fully stacked they’ll be entering battle with effectively 900 extra max health. That’s stronger than an entire team affected by Alex’s level 20, Blessing of the Red.
Which only matters when split.
In grouped team fights, that means nothing.
Say hi what?
Li Li can reposition herself to choose healing targets.
She also needs to position to choose wind targets.
And to choose Water Dragon and possibly Jug targets.
She wants to take light damage, so she has to position for that, and to auto-attack.
Like she could be more interactive, but her Q still has a lot more going into it than Possession.
There is a reason I out damaged Li-Ming and every other assassin in the last ARAM I did as Li Li.
this is our issue i believe, at the start of the hero concept i had stated that all numbers were based on level 20. i chose level 20 because after all the scaling is said and done, what matter is the end stats of a character. so we were comparing a purification nova at level 20 vs pyroblast at level 1 .
same for all the other examples provided.
its always dependant on the situation at hand.
get someone down to 200HP and give them full armor, its still about 1’100 . ( which takes 9 seconds to get there )
get someone down to 200HP and have alex heal them in the same timeframe and they will be well over 1’100HP. ( still talking everyone at level 20 here. )
the strong point of armor though is definitely preparation of fights.
get shielded up and engage with an advantage in initial healthpool + shield .
both healing and shielding share their advantages and drawbacks.
but in this example , shielding allies carries significantly more risks.
the weakness of the shield here is that its not permanent if the player moves our of range. Blessing of the red is. no one loses their bonus if they get away from alexstraza.
but also takes 9 seconds to fully recover 900 shield ( and 18 seconds for karax himself ) and at the exception of picking 2 specific talents , has no other means of healing. most healers tend to have multiple means of healing target(s) . but also, if you look at the health pool , most healers also have nearly double his health at level 20.
see it this way, if Karax and kael tas were the same level and pyroblast was to be used. Karax would be one-shoted even at 100% HP.
if he had full shield up , 1’630+900, ( 2’530 ) , that amount would be enough to completely clear his armor and leave him with only about 379 hp left.
this would make him highly vulnerable to AoE attacks, which in contrast why i initially believed it would balance out the risk vs reward of his armor .
since now we both know we were talking about lvl 1 values vs lvl 20 values, i tihnk we will be able to have a more proper exchange of ideas , or opinion about the concept.
Then you are using it incorrectly.
Possession at correct times can boost your pushing potential massively and quickly overwhelm defenses. Its not just about creating an easy to destroy target, or making the wave a little stronger. Its about making it stronger at the correct time.
And this goes even down to details as to which unit you should convert. Always converting all 3 does not mean the strongest push. Sometimes converting just 1 unit in order to stall your minions from progressing is better to make the next wave of you align with the current.
For a talent i would say that is already quite some detail. In the case of this karax idea, it goes further because the minions you convert decide which unit you get. Which can be used to grant additional effects on top of that. This changes your potential entirely.
Especialy if the energizer also affects heroes (which i couldnt see if it did, and if it didnt, would be worthy of a talent on its own - although just level 1 or 4), as that forces the enemy to attack the energizer wasting time and shots against players.
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I loved Karax in SC2, I would love him here too!
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its true that he would be a great addition !
whats your thoughts on the concept overall ?
do you think it would be fitting him or does it feel out of place ?
No, you’re just understanding me wrong.
i think most of our “arguing” so far stems from either miscommunication or misunderstanding . i think we’re all looking at this from different angles and thats whats causing the issues here. lets take a step back and start over from what we can at least agree on so far and go from there.
- possession vs warp-in :
possession is a talents that takes 1 unit and converts it to your side.
warp-in kills an enemy unit, and summons few seconds later a new unit who’s stats and bonus are based on what your initially killed .
for the doesnt do much part, i totally agree , its not as interactive as other summoners, but also because Karax wasnt designed to be such. however it could be argued on its impact given the unit selection the player gets from it. is it worthy of its own Q ? thats the part where trying to have a discussion here and figure out the balance with interactivity vs impactibility ( not sure if its a true english word , but if its not, it now is for the purpose of this discussion lol )
- Purification nova / Pyroblast : that part we can clear out easily.
we were comparing lvl 20 numbers with lvl 1 numbers.
i already provided the numbers from kael tas, li ming , jaina artanis and deathwing as a mean of comparative numbers, we can deffintely check out more but i think we have enough grounds to analyse the impact.
we just need to not forget while we look at the numbers , small recap , that the initial cast time is 0.75 seconds and the detonation of purification nova is after 3.5 seconds. meaning from the first moment until it detonates, Karax is “channeling” for 4.25 seconds. any stuns during that time would just cancel the nova entirely.
- Trait : his HP at level 20 is on par with murky , whitemane being the healer with the lowest HP pool thus far in the came comes out with barely over 3k health.
Karax’s health is slighter over 1’600. + 900 shields which on him would take 18 seconds to be fully charged up. putting him around the 2’500 ball park .
given that most stats are typically 200% of theirs level 1 counter part for most heroes, with average scalling , we could expect to see Karax having a max health of about 815 + 450 shield for a total of 1’265 .
now, for the shield per seconds, absolutely i agree that 100 shield per seconds would be insane starting from level 1, but we arent, however if you want to still to level 1 stats, you could expect it to be around 50 shields per seconds .
now , we need to consider the numbers with the risks that character faces . the closest comparative character like you brought up would be Lucio which is a good point.
Lucio has way more mobility and knock backs available in order to avoid danger or if dived. but also stands at more than double Karax’s hp ( both at level 1 or level 20 ) or roughly 75-80% if we include fully charged shields.
lastly , shields also decays upon being out of range. given the low healthpool it could be argued that forcing Karax to retreat would be significantly easier than forcing lucio to retreat. specially since he has no CC ( at the expection of a 0.5 silence once talented into it and a 3 seconds blind which also required talent. )
now we have all the proper variable and context to have a good dialogue and exchange of ideas we can finally talk about this one the right way.
- Solar lance vs purifier beam : again we were just comparing uneven levels together . on the same levels, Artanis’ ult would deal more damage. as for Karax, in order to have its maximum damage, one would need to stay within the lasers for 3 seconds straight then move in the same direction of the lasers to keep getting hit by them. the average hit to be expected could be anywhere from 250 to 1’950 if someone where to get hit by all 3 lasers once they would start moving, dealing their 650 damage.
i think it covers all the point we seemed to have some misunderstanding or small arguing about. so now, lets try this one more time lol 
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