So I’ve gotten that advice a lot. And I actually went with it. However, in my experience, it has been a bad idea in the overwhelming majority of cases.
Take this case for example:
My team captured a boss, I followed them to the enemy keep, and used Entomb to secure a kill. It was a bit sketchy because we were guaranteed that keep. Then, I wanted to get the hell out. You clearly see it, But then I decide to go with the “follow your team’s bad call” thing.
My expectation was that my team will get itself killed. Because they were doing it before, and we have no tank during that push. We shoud back because we are guaranteed both objectives. The enemy has to clear the boss, and if they ignore the boss to come to us, they lose their keep anyway. But the most likely scenario is, we get both objectives, they get nothing.
The ONLY way the enemy can get anything, is if we keep fighting there and lose, then they get the entire bot obj.
I consistently would get more value had I not followed my team, so I think I’m going to stop following that advice. Have some of you gotten opposite experiences?
Looked like it was the right call to me. Your allies were going to die anyway and you managed to get an additional kill from the enemy (Tychus) in the process while not dying.
Had you not done that you would have got more of the objective, but your allies would have all died, the enemy would have been at more health and they would then have come and forced you off the objective around half way or so.
The mistake made by your team was made around 0:20 where Blaze pulled off a 4 man stun. Your ranged allies were grouping far too much so ran up a lot of splash damage.
The classic overstay. I don’t know, I was thinking about that lately too. Do the right thing, or do the wrong thing but with team. Sometme the wrong plan can end well, so why not. Still not sure about the answer.
Like if I try to soak for level 13 while my 4 teamates are very aggressive vs 5 people (who are already lvl 13) on another lane. No obj, nothing is urgent, but team decide to dive because I don’t know, tank got a nice stun. They die, spam ping me, ‘‘y are u not wit team’’. So should I just try to soak for equal talents, or try to be alway with them or very close in case they decide to go aram mode. Hard to tell
The call is likely fine; you get a pick so the hero numbers are even, and boss can negate the structure, so it’s not a ‘wrong’ call in the context of just that call itself – ie, team has boss and diablo isn’t taking the bot objective to focus fire to that lane.
While you don’t have a ‘tank’ they do still have a frontline, and a leoric posturing** can both put pressure on high hp enemies, but also to screen cc with his unstoppable. Backing out gives the enemy team the capacity to get to your dps and turn that around with everyone clustered for the blaze stun
Just backing off doesn’t really tell your team you want out. The ping on objective came before you went in, which gives the impression you’re going in, not backing out. A new ping, a retreat hotkey and a type in chat (is that allowed? ) would help indicate that you’re not engaging to force the fort down and just took opportunity there. Whether staying or not is a bad decision, actions speak louder than pings, and giving mixed signals isn’t going to change their actions.
Certain roles function better for ‘follow team on wrong calls’ to actually enable that call to work, or rather, they can be ‘wrong calls’ because the essential element isn’t there. Clearly you should have pinged the merc camp instead
My allies deaths did not get us anything. They lost 2 heroes we lost four, but our deaths were not traded for any actual value. Their 2 deaths get them a full objective, it’s a bad trade.
Had we gone to objective, their absolute best scenario is interrupting us and getting part of an objective. But that would be a fight with Diablo actually there, since he would have been done with his temple. There’s no reason to force a 4 v 5, when you can get a 5 v5 plus at least an objective and a half.
I can’t agree that it was the right call, because we didn’t get anything. The enemy didn’t lose their keep and they took the bot temple 100%. We gave up an objective in exchange for what?
My allies die reguardless. If they die while I channel the objective, I’m not losing any value versus them dying in front of the enemy gate with me, I gain some. The enemy having more health isn’t relevant in that case, since I can’t stop them anyway. And no fight happens while they’re low health. And they would get less than half of an objective.
Blaze gets the stun because my team mates were there. There was no value to them being there in the first place. When an objective is up, your tank doesn’t want to fight, and the enemy can’t show up to the objective right away, forcing a fight at their gate is stupid.
When I feel very strongly against a team decision I will usually try to persuade them not to follow through, by pinging retreat and not following.
Sometimes works sometimes doesn’t.
I think you should take which course of action increases your probability of winning.
So if the team makes a bad decision. Such as a risky invade, going for boss etc and your team dieing wont immediately end the game with a loss it makes sense to stay alive and add value elsewhere (soak some exp, depush a lane, not giving enemy exp for your death in the first place).
However if the death of your team at that point means you are probably going to lose the game… you should go with them and increase your odds of winning even if it still isn’t in your favour.
I’m afraid that’s faulty logic Xen. You’re saying it was a good call because I got a pick and numbers were even. But I secured that kill after my team mates had already decided to push. It would mean they had predicted that I would get a kill. Which is unlikely since I wasn’t with them when they started pushing.
My team had ignored retreat pings all game until that point. Which is what made me second guess myself. I knew they wouldn’t leave if I told them too.
First, they attacked even though they knew you weren’t there, so that misplay is on them. However, if they all die like this often, it will completely negate any xp advantage you try to get. So if you think you can be there on time to prevent them from taking a 4v 5, you should try.
Sometimes it’s obvious someone will die before you can even get there, so there’s no point.
what makes a play “bad” is getting punished for it. If the position is held, you get takedowns and end the game without diablo in that push, then it’s not the “call” that is considered “bad”
The objective take you posted above is one perspective, not all of them. Making a call and the execution of the call are two different things and appear “faulty” if you neglect particulars that make those distinctions matter. The execution of the call was flawed, but that doesn’t preclude value can be attained from the choice and follow-up action.
That’s part of why some replay analysis isn’t just looking at two possibilities, but multiple forms of options apart from
just the given outcome
LoL, I knew what was going to be in the video even before I saw it. Phaseshifter is so predictable in his allergy to fights.
The call was fine. Leaving isn’t necessarily wrong, it’s that you left way too soon. Even if you wanted to leave, you ping first, you don’t just up and leave while you still have a set of siege giants and your boss still up after you got a pick.
The problem was also mainly bunching for a Blaze stun, which would have likely been harder to pull off if Leoric created a little more distance from the backline.
honestly, i half agree with this. if i was in ur shoes, i wouldve left early too but the way u left was so sudden. u backed up, mounted up, n pinged bot obj once.
what u shouldve done is spam retreat right in front of ur allies n pinged obj, AND THEN back up n mount. tunnel visioning is a serious problem n i think we can all agree that there r times ur teammates (myself too sometimes lol) r just blind-sighted from just backing off and therefore overstaying in a position that they shouldn’t have been in
Whether to follow a bad call or not depends on your ranked MMR. Before high diamond / masters+; staying alive is usually better as the value of soaking is immense at lower MMR. Assuming you arent D1+ then avoiding high risk plays would be my advice.
Saying that, you should communicate when you retreat. Spam back pings until the ping cap and then type “back” in chat. This will not always work, but it does make a difference over the course of many games.
In general: Especially in the low ELO you kinda have to follow calls. If you do you will loose, if you dont you will loose AND get reported.
I have serious troubles about you example, a very important game basic is just ignored that ended up in this desaster.
So: Outside of organized teams with voice and shizzle the tank and ONLY the tank makes the calls. The team (all but the offlaner) is supposed to follow him. If dibbles decides to play the objective the team has to play the objective. So if players wanna decide how to engage, when to push etc they gotta play tank, not Falstad, Stukov or Nazeboo. This means: you didnt follow the team, this would have meant to play the objective (like diablo) or do your sololaner shizzle and get lvl 16.
Smaller mistakes: Falstad ulti pick. Hinterland blast? Really? You guys move in without the tank and without a proper disengage tool? And then complain that you get wiped?
What is that Nazeboo doing there? He is THE lategame Hero and should be as defensiv as possible till vile infection kicks in.
Suggestions for you to avoid such things in the future: Learn to draft, there is a nice video from grubby about it. Sounds harsh? Yes, it is, sorry for that in advantage.
Dont get me wrong, Leoric is very strong as offlaner, his kit and performance is freaking impressiv. But two things about him in this composition:
Leo isnt a bit of a match for blaze on the Offlane. Blaze can simply poke down structures from a save distance and leo cant do anything about it. Not to mention that Leo cant exploid his superior waveclear, just becorse Blaze pins him down in one lane. And leo will loose that lane. Appereantly this didnt happen so you can take this as an advice for future matches.
Your team has a dire lack of hard cc. Even with falstad playing gust you have nothing but diablo wallstuns. A reliable stun would have worked miracles. So Hogger or Dehaka would have been good ideas. Yrel would have been top. Here synergies with diablo are well known (remeber when the combo diablo/Yrel/deckard was considered unbeatable in HGC) . She provides all the draft of your mates is lacking: Mobilty, burst, cc and disengage.
Yes Leo looks good vs stichie for his % damage. But belive me, Yrel lvl 16 is a much more powerful tool against him.
This is all theory. Read it, consider it…make your own mind about it. GL.
What is this made up advice haha. Leo is a tank buster and blaze is… a high HP tank. Generally leo vs blaze is even because blaze should be able to dash away to break the leo W but absolutely under no circumstances can Leo be considered a bad pick vs Blaze at pretty much any level (except maaaaybe tournament level). Overall blaze vs Leo is skill based MU.
As you said… sounds harsh but you are clearly not the kind of MMR to be giving advice based on what you said in your post…
Be glad im kinda lazy. There is a replay of a game Leo vs Blaze in the X cup winters 21. Swampgroota against Quopenhagen(?), that impessivly showed why not to pick Leo against Blaze.
Leo lost 50% of wall HP before even lvl 4, Blaze just did that by spamming the oil under the wall and set it afire. Leo has no weapon against it. As you said: Blaze can use jet thingy to interrupt drain.
So Leo will need help against him or Blaze will build up a significant structual advantage.
Edit, Sry man, checked like 50 matches and cant find it. All in all i just found one single Leo pick into a blaze (while blaze is kinda picked every game he isnt banned).
You’re putting too much emphasis on the offlane matchup, not enough on the comfort pick, the other 4 heroes matchup, the map and the MMR.
You’re even suggesting in a silver/gold game to play Yrel, one of the highest skill floor hero that only mains should play her.
hmm…im getting some “dont drink and drive” videos there. Maybe becorse im from Europe?
Anyway, checked this CCL season. Against 20 x Blaze it was kinda 15 x Hogger, 3 x Dehaka, 1x Yrel, 1 x Thrall(!). Roundabout.
He played offlaner in this game, i play offlaner main so yes, my emphasis is focussed on it, guilty.
As said: its just theorie. Planeshifter can take it or leave it. Maybe it helps him (in whatever way) or it dont, he will not get worse.
Im still convinced that a second hero providing hard CC would have been a good idea. Ofc i dont know what has happend in the draft itself. Maybe someone prepicked hanzo and changed Naz AFTER the leo pick.
You’re concentrating on the wrong things. Draft and talent picks of your allies are things that are largely out of your control. I’d also argue almost every one of your points is highly debatable or wrong.
Hinterlands was what got the pick.
Nazeebo is a late game hero, but that doesn’t prevent him from being with the team in a push. Forcing yourself to get vile infection every game while being a bad ally just makes you a bad ally,
Leo is fine, it’s how he was played that is the issue.
Captain obvious here… you sent a video of top players having a Leo vs Blaze match up so… clearly top players DO PICK LEO, as your video has shown…
If reading is a hard skill then I’ll repeat. Leo vs Blaze is absolutely fine MU for both players, aka skill MU at all levels except maybe tournament level, which is an island of its own with its own meta.
At top level Leo is not bad vs Blaze, it’s just that Blaze is S+ tier pick at that level and is the most contested off laner on many maps. Showing blaze doing well in one game is a rather terrible statistical argument.
Either way, neither you or OP are in the top 0.1% so that doesn’t matter anyway.
If reading was a hard skill then you would have understood that out of 50 games with like 35 - 40 blaze picks I found ONE with a Leo against him. All the other 35 - 40 games it was NOT Leo. Is that still a terrible statistic?
Epic, you are like that guy who cant drive but tries to teach a learner driver using clips of F1 racing. F1 and driving a Toyota yaris are completely different things, please get this very simple fact…
) would help indicate that you’re not engaging to force the fort down and just took opportunity there. Whether staying or not is a bad decision, actions speak louder than pings, and giving mixed signals isn’t going to change their actions.