Follow your team to a wrong call?

To be fair, it is kind of a terrible way to collect evidence. Blaze is arguably the best offlaner in the game at the moment, so it is no surprise he will be in just about every match in pro play. Leo isn’t a bad matchup into Blaze, but he needs talents to fully come online, where Blaze has powerful clear and siege damage out of the gate. Blaze also offers more than Leo does in team fights, at least until level 20 when Leo gets Buried Alive, which is a game changer.

I play a ton of Blaze myself, and while Leo isn’t the hardest matchup for him, I wouldn’t say it is an autowin. Leo is fine into Blaze, especially on maps where double-soaking is valuable.

2 Likes

Well, that’s where we disagree. I don’t think achieving a good result from a bad call makes the call retroactively good. I think a bad call is a bad call. Otherwise, how can you make a choice? A good call could end up with your team dying, and a bad call could work out if the enemy screws up. So by that definition, all calls are both good and bad all the time.
They’re like Quantum calls.

Is that value better than the alternative though?

Get keep damage and risk dying (and giving the enemy an obj.) vs get keep damage.
For me, that’s not a difficut decision.

The answer to the question “Can value be gained” is almost always yes. That doesn’t make all options equal though. (Or desirable)

I didn’t leave,…

Yeah I guess I should have. But I had done that for the last 15 levels, and my team didn’t care. (I mean, Falstad died 8 times, being forwarned every time) So at that point there isn’t much point.
Imgur

My chat is turned off.

I don’t think I can agree that following 1 player and ignoring 3 qualifies as “follow the team” I’ve never seen anyone interpret it that way.

As for your other points, I can’t control anything my team mates do, or the talents they pick, and I had to pick early because, as usual, no one would show or pick anything. So I can’t see how it was a draft issue on my part.

I don’t play Yrel sadly. I started learning her, but I feel she does poorly if your team mates are clueless and don’t follow up on what you do, so I didn’t bother.

I partially agree with Justman though. Blaze will get free siege damage on your gate and towers that you can’t stop. But another bruiser wouldn’t be able to prevent it either.

Do you know of any way to counter that?

Don’t worry about the wave as much as bullying Blaze whenever possible. Slow him, spoopy hand him, whack him in the face with a mace, keep him occupied with you that he can’t focus as much on your building. If he has to use his oil to heal or slow you down, he can’t use it to torch your towers. Sure, he can break spoopy hand by Eing away, but that means he isn’t breaking your stuff.

3 Likes

I can’t remember playing many Leo vs Blaze games but in my head I would clear minions on my side of the lane and then position aggressively while Blaze has his E available.

By that I mean hold onto my W until im next to him so if he wants to break it he has to e off back towards his own towers.

What hoku and face said. You can try to force him use oil/fire as waveclear. It will be rough anyway.
Keep in mind that a blaze can go toe to toe with you even with a drain connected, especially if he has his lvl 1 attack speed talent rdy.

I dont fully understand why the top pick hogger against him that often. Dehaka looks way better to me with his drag.

I learned something form this though. After being gorged by Stitches, Leoric’s drain hope keeps going lol.

1 Like

yeah, sometimes, thats just how it is with teammates. i feel ur pain lol

Video showed your team only lost 3 heroes. For the duration of the video if you had not followed your allies you would have ended up with 3 heroes dead and only 1 killed with some objective progress as opposed to 3 heroes dead and 2 killed. You ended up +1 kill by doing so for some objective progress. Diablo dying after the video ended is their own fault and not related to your actions.

They would have killed your other 3 allied heroes, then came after you and Diablo. You would have had to flee the objective and Diablo likely would have still died if they did die after the video.

Yes if your allies played better you could have done something better. But then again if they played better they could have won the 3v4 by not grouping up and so you would have taken the keep and got more kills. This is why I am sticking to the original topic of if your choice was the best. Given that your allies still would have fought to the death and not managed to kill Tychus without you, I think it was the right choice as you ended up with 1 kill at the cost of some objective progress while still ahead on macro.

You trade half an objective progress (as the enemy would have run to it after they killed your allies) for 1 kill. You had macro advantage so the extra kill for keeping levels close could be worth more than losing a fort extra.

If they played better and were not stun they could have won the 3v4 with a 1 level advantage.

Because at competitive levels of play, an offlaner has to bring more to the table than simply the 1v1. Hogger has a personal cleanse on a short CD, and is perfect for flank n’ ganks. He can also take camps faster and more safely than most bruisers, and has the damage output to finish kills. Mind you, Dehaka is still a fantastic pick on most maps, but it isn’t because he can duel a Blaze!

1 Like

I also died, I got chased for a while. But even 3 deaths for two kills and the enemy getting the objective is still a horrible trade. There’s nothing positive in that outcome. Those 2 kills were meainingless. If I could get zero kills but destroy the enemy keep, I will take that any day.

They wouldn’t have been killed because they wouldn’t have been there. My team should have went for the obj while the boss and mercs were pushing.

No, a kill is worth more for the team that is behind on xp. If you’re in the lead, you get less xp. In this case, I wouldn’t be trading anything. If my team mates push, they die either way . In one case I get objective channel, in the other I get nothing.

Why would they have won? If I don’t show up, Morales doesn’t die, So it’s a 3 v 5, not a 3 v 4. (Both are bad anyway) It’s three squishies with no engage or CC. Why should we expect them to win outnumbered?

being unable to consider if a ‘bad call’ turns out ‘good’ would be a reduction of choices, not an increase of them. What it looks like you’re trying to describe is asserting value of outcomes before they happen, and that isn’t how consequences work. People can play the odds and look for favorable probabilities, but they do not control all other actions, and more importantly, reactions to the call. That’s part of why casters or streamers can point out the ‘good call’ and describe how it didn’t work out, or get surprised by a ‘bad call’ upsetting the expected flow of the game.

Getting better value from a ‘bad call’ either indicates context was missing for the evaluation, or execution of the call did not align with the prediction, so the assertion that a ‘bad call’ cannot have value is denying relevant context.*

That’s part of why people can/should review replays in the first place: to find things that increase their awareness and influence similar choices in the future. When enough of that is done, then it shifts expectations and eventually what is ‘meta’, or rather, what is counter to the ‘meta’.

In regarding the context, in a reply to AzXtreme you said you “didn’t leave”. That is an errant claim, and demonstrates the issue of perception to the shown context. You did leave, but you also went back in. It’s an erroneous claim and demonstrates the issue of hard-set claims on certain calls as an absolute, and not a “quantum call”. The definition you suit does not magically make things to be “both good and bad all the time” and that’s a series of fallacies trying to push something to suit the false-dillma, or rather, to reject anything that doesn’t directly suit two outcomes.

For this given example, you don’t see value in possibilities, so you also don’t see flaws in execution of the call, so the reply is “i didn’t leave”, instead of something else. This dynamic essentially turns most of the checks on the example into agree/disagree confirmation bias rather than an exploration of options regarding following a ‘wrong call’. Part of the difficulty in getting ‘value’ from these deviations from their expectations is people are more prone to wanting the ‘self-fulfilled’ prophecy at the expense of ‘value’. “i don’t see value; I did my part” type of replies.

The topic is then a check on agreement for that, rather than a question on what could be done differently: you have secured your perception for ‘value’ on the call and seek validation and insist on extreme polarized responses such as “only this” or “only that” and there is more than just two takes on this.

If you don’t consider more than that, then that is going to frustrate your capacity to get value from “following teammates on bad calls” because you’re more than likely not going to provide the execution it takes for those plays to work. That isn’t a slight against you, but it is a “reality” of games where the most keen player can make a prediction and still be surprised by the outcome that follows.

Your allies are not something you have control over. The topic you made is literally called “Follow your team to a wrong call?” The only option and question here is if you made the right choice following your team or if you should have left them die by themselves (which they still would have) and instead taken the objective.

I accidently miscounted by looking at wrong part of video.

When you killed Morales you effectively made it a 4v4 with a level advantage in your favour and no enemy healer. Further more Stukov had shoving arm to force someone away for an extended period. If your team was more skilled chances are you could have won that 4v4 as was evident by the enemy losing a hero by the end, instead everyone grouped together and was stunned and slowed by Blaze and stiches removed you for an extended period from the fight.

But again this is playing on what if’s with your team. As far as you are concerned there were only 2 choices to make. You could either fight with your allies, or take the objective and let your allies fight by themselves. Both would result in the death of your allies.

You pinged bot obj, that’s great. Your issue was you walked away from your team, as the only bruiser/frontline, in the middle of a 4 v 4.

So that early pick of morales by you, was also negated by you, by running away first from your team, as the frontline, with full HP. Even if you realize you should be taking value on bot obj, you don’t leave first as the frontline, especially at max HP.

Spam escape first on the point your team is at, so they’ll see them on screen too. People are more likely to catch that over a ping somewhere else on the map.

And if you want to turn your team off a bad call, don’t follow them, go straight bot, and spam escape over and over on their screens as they walk up to it. I counted over 20 shots from mid obj as Diablo was holding it, while the boss was still up, Pretty much the entire bot obj coulda been capped in the time boss was still alive. You would have taken bot with bot obj and boss walking towards core instead.

there’s just too much wrong in that clip. Fal shoulda gone mid after boss, while the 4 stack goes bot. Fal uses global if they try to invade, which they won’t cause Boss + bot obj woulda wiped that tower WAY faster, and both obj woulda been hitting mid with their last shots. Maybe even two towers gone EASILY - instead, you got neither, a boss and double obj completely wasted, and the other team defended.

Then I’m not sure I understand the point of the comment.

I think we’ll disagree on the term “Extended period”. We’re right in front of the enemy keep, Stukov therefore is at the point where his shove would cover the least distance. I would have been more confident if he had “Flailing Swipe”, yet another reason why I thought it was a bad idea.

Also, we did not have level advantage, when my team were pushing it was 14 vs 14.

Yes, but I consider the latter preferable, because we get something out of it, instead of simply dying and giving the enemy an objective they never should have had.

Well, yes. The entire point of the topic is judging whether you should follow your team down a cliff, when you think they’re going down a cliff… Not concerned with evaluating consequences after the fact. I was very clear that I expected them to die from the start.

Your assessment is incorrect. You can clearly see on the video that my team did not get engaged on while I was backing. None of the enemy got anywhere near them. They get in trouble after Falstad gets hooked, and I was there at that time.

And honestly, I cannot tank for my team. I already used my engage, and I have no way to peel for them. The enemy have two AoE slows, a stun, displacement, Gorge and and AoE silence. Leoric has no tool to protect his teamates from any of that. And If I stand near Tychus, he kills me pretty quickly.

You’re expecting too much from random players.

Yeah, it’s almost like you had a boss that was taking the heat off. But you were so afraid of dying and so insecure in your own abilities, you left. If you hadn’t had left, you would have gone in broken that wall sooner, which would have given your allies much more room to spread and actually created distance for your backline, which would have made stunning all 4 of you by the Blaze much more difficult.

Just shows he knows nothing and always making excuses for why he can’t do something.

Yup he can kill you so quickly that you end up basically killing him after half your allies die.

It’s just insanity with these Phaseshifter posts because they always play out the same. He presents a scenario or screenshot, has no qualms asking the forums for feedback, but almost always analyzes the situation incorrectly, and has no intention of actually listening or reflecting on his own failures that led to a poor result.

Here, there’s plenty to think about, and many have given insightful thoughts, many of which are higher ranked than him, but the only thing he REALLY learns is that he can drain life through a gorge. But he’s going to agree to disagree till the cows comes home.

And he gets surprised and frustrated that he fluctuates between gold and silver.

I have to correct myself, Leo gets picked into Blaze,

Cats vs. Disgusting - X-Cup Summer - Heroes of the Storm 2022 - YouTube

game 2.

1 Like

I listen only to 1% of pings. The remaining 99% of the pings that the allies use are the path to defeat, in fact, these are calls for non-stop fights, as if I were playing Aram. But here each player must be approached individually. Everyone has their own experience, everyone learns differently.