On top of everything else, I think another aspect to take into consideration is CC reliability. Kerrigan’s stun (whilst amazing) is very hard to land. Even if she had great personal survivability, there’s no way she could “peel” for friendly team mates with any level of certainty.
I think that’s where Dehaka failed as an official tank. The huge cast delay and slow projectile speed of his tongue makes it unreliable. Very impactful when it does land though.
Stitches is a great example of someone who has amazing, fight defining CC…if it lands. This lack of reliability is part of the reason why people consider him one of the worst tanks.
Cool stats. I’ve never seen these before. Yrel totally makes sense. She sure is unusual.
Stats are there to be analysed and even the finest of scientists can draw the wrong conclusions hence the importance of peer review.
My interpretation of why cho’s bad player / good player discrepancy is higher than his peers would be more to do with the consequence of him dying.
New players usually have horrible positioning and as a result, die unnecessarily. However, not only does that new player die, but they also take gall out with them and grant the enemy double xp in the process. This further ensures the loss.
Hm… maybe it’s my fault that I wasn’t clear enough so you can understand it.
Varian became a tank for QM because of that.
Dehaka, Yrel and Imperius stayed as a Bruiser because for them, being a Tank would’ve been a nerf.
The Warrior Role was remade into Tanks and Bruisers, because those who became Bruisers couldn’t provide enougb for their teams against those who became Tanks.
Same reason why certain Bruisers are treated as Melee Assassins in QM.
Varian being a Bruiser didn’t stop Blizz to match him witb Tanks.
Malthael being a Bruiser yet matched against M.Assas.
Xul was still used as main tank despite being a Bruiser that is matched against Melee Assas.
Blaze is a Tank yet ppl Draft him as a Bruiser, happens with Arthas and Tyrael as well.
Uther is a Healer, yet even I used him as a sololaner Bruiser, and it was common meta-practice.
Deathwing is a Bruiser but his metabuild is Q and that’s a mage build.
I solotanked many times as Imperius.
A friend of mine likes to brag about how she solotanked as Artanis.
There are ppl who build dmg Lili, acting as a kind of assassin despite being a Healer.
Tassadar was reworked into a Ranged Assassin.
Labels only work in QM, but not even there as you can see from my examples, so what’s the point? It’s fluff.
Cho can be relabelled as a Bruiser but still bematched in QM like Varian.
See?
I hope now you understand.
His Armor and his selfheal is EHP. Effective HP.
You said that then he sacrifices Gall’s dmg, so I went into detail saying that’s not how it works in skilled and coordinated hands.
You’re really trying to grasp on straws, man.
According to me, and many others, comparing stats is misleading statpadding tbh. There’s a reason why ppl hate when certain players point at the statscreen and draw conclusions purely on that. Context is way more than who starts with more CC. Did you even add Cho’s and Gall’s CC together? Because they’re one Hero.
Well, at the same time, if the labeling is only fluff and the system can still match using another category than the label, is there a reason to not change the label of Cho to bruiser, still pairing him against a tank, and providing an indication that he is not your usual tank? There are already several examples of this kind.
Do I need to ask why anyone would want a meaningless change?
If Cho is relabelled a Bruiser but matched as a Tank in QM even after, that can happen without causing any problems, but what’s the point?
It’s like asking to rename Cho into Chow. It could be done, but… why?
Imo, changing the status quo should only happen if it’s an improvement. And stat averages or not, I saw not a single solid argument on how and why would this improve the game (not the Hero, because improving Heroes are buffs, and buffing stuff which doesn’t need it hurts the game’s balance).
So how can one justify a change which changes nothing?
But if they truly want an impactful change, what’s their reasoning?
I guess what Dreyda is trying to say is that it is not meaningless. Given that I can’t play Blaze in the solo lane in Bronze and in low silver, because “not 2 tanks”, I guess that categorization has an impact on how people perceive the hero. It is certainly not the case for you, but it is also certain that it has an impact for other people. For people who doesn’t care about categorization, it indeed does not change anything. For the other, it will. The thing now that I let you guys discuss, because I don’t play Cho, is if what Dredyda is arguing about has a meaning or not.
I see that as a Player issue, not a Game/Hero/Role issue. Something that cannot be fixed.
You cannot escape this. Not even with friends, because they could also fear unconventional ways.
Let’s say ppl will tell you to not pick Cho when you guys already have a Tank, because he’s labelled as a Tank (ignoring the many Tanks that can “bruise” and the existing and working Double Tank comps) and not a Bruiser and now we change it to Bruiser, so ppl don’t judge too harshly.
Now ppl will complain that you cannot Tank as Cho, because he’s a Bruiser. Or they won’t care about the Hero’s label at all and just say you shouldn’t play it because it’s a troll/bad pick.
How can you fix false perceptions? You can either prove them wrong by doing what you want and win (if they let you), or you cannot do anything because they already made up their minds and they will do anything to prove themselves right (maybe even throw).
But you won’t face ppl like this all the time. There are ppl who will let you pick Butcher, Murky, Aba, Hanzo and other weird/hard Heroes that make many scared.
And I’m wondering… those who don’t think that matching Cho (a Hero that is now a Tank in QM) against Bruisers won’t matter and won’t be a buff… why is Varian, a Bruiser, matched against Tanks? Why are Tanks (or in their absence, Bruisers) Role-mirrored? Why certain Bruisers matched against Melee Assassins?
Imo, not because labels matter nor because Tanks and Bruisers don’t have an advantage against less tanky Melee characters.
The only people who think comparing stats across hundreds of thousands of games is “midleading statpadding” is people who are mad that the data show a trend that doesn’t support their feelings.
Yes, that’s what I believe is causing the huge discrepancy between his win rate on lower level players versus his win rate on higher level players. If you had been reading my posts you would’ve known that already.
What are the data backing that assumption up?
Are other possible reasons, like the Hero being hard to play, or depending not on 1 but 2 players filtered out?
How?
I’m talking about the information I posted previously:
I personally don’t feel like Cho is a particularly hard hero to play. His ability set isn’t very complicated and none of his abilities are tough to land skill shots or combos. Perhaps he is harder to play than I think he is, but when I look at some of those other heroes like Yrel, Medivh, and Kerrigan - Cho seems like a walk in the park. Would you put Cho on the difficulty level of most of those other heroes in that list?
I don’t know how we could take that into account. There is going to be some bias in the data because you’re guaranteed to have 2 players in a party with Cho’Gall, but I think over the course of hundreds of thousands of games, the matchmaker has hopefully been balanced enough in building the teams that we’re okay to use it.
I thought you are a man of logic and data and not feels, like you accuse everyone who doesn’t agree with you…
Cho is a Hero who is responsible for 2 characters’ life and death, and requires two players to coordinate to work well, ofc he’s hard.
You go in while Gall wasted his Z on kicking you out? You went in and Gall stole your Armor? You went out but Gall doesn’t reclaim his 25% extra dmg? You two talented unsynergistically? You knock ppl out from Gall’s dmg with your abilities? Gall doesn’t detonate the bomb at the right time?
My Cho has 64% wr while my Gall has 23% and not because I cannot land skillshots or know what I’m doing. Cho is hard.
And Cho doesn’t even has the biggest gap. What role should Yrel has then? Because clearly if players struggle with Heroes they started to play, it must be because they’re facing the wrong kind of enemies and not because they’re learning, that’s why experienced ones stop struggling, because the Hero is not suited for that Role!.. Or least when you feel that’s the case, and not when you don’t feel as such…
And tbh, 2-3% difference isn’t even that meaningful. Like why should I believe or think Cho stands out?
Bullet proof data and conclusions then…
You cannot be certain, you admit, yet you think others are dumb because you didn’t buy them yet with your reasoning.
If this a player issue, so what? Helping these players to have a more realistic perception of the hero wouldn’t help them? Following you line of thoughts, the categeries should be droped entirely. The thing is that they exist and are used, so just make use of these categories as best as one can in the current state of the game. People use that, ok “bad” players use them if you want, but they still use them. Again, I am not saying that categorizing Cho as a bruiser is the correct way to go, I let this discussion to people who know about him. I am saying that the category is not as meaningless as you say.
The fact that you would even ask that question indicates you still don’t understand why your approach is terrible. You simply don’t. Looking at any one thing in a vacuum has limited value. You can make predictions as to why certain stats can affect their performance, but that’s only IF you look at the most important data, their win rate which shows there actually is a problem.
It’s like saying there are too many fat people in X population, finding that the BMI saying they aren’t, and then go, well actually… if you look at the clothing of people who are fat they tend to… You just ignored the actual data that matters the most to look at meta data.
Like if you think about characteristics of good healers, you generally think heal output is great, but if you look at the intricacies of each hero, the discrepancy can look dramatic even when it might not have that much effect in their ability to perform in their role. Whether you look at an Uther whose mitigation isn’t recorded, or a hero like Alexstraza who specifically damages herself knowing she’ll be able to heal it back up. Or a healer like healing punch Kharazim where he’s doing a ton more healing, but also taking a TON more damage. That’s why I don’t call transcendence the healing talent, I call it the off tanking talent.
When performance based matchmaking was rolled out, GM tanks were noticing that worse tanks were getting better adjustments because they were simply “tanking” more damage, that was stat padding, because the system doesn’t have a reliable way to record how much damage you would have taken if you positioned more poorly. In a case like Cho’Gall, that’s probably true, a good Cho isn’t going to need to tank a bunch of damage if it’s going to kill him, because there’s no need for him to if Gall is putting pressure at range. The intricacies of having two heroes shoved in one has real consequences in how the hero functions. That doesn’t make them ineffective tank in the role though, they just function differently.
I didn’t, you just chose a really poor example because the way you’re analyzing is again just choosing a random metric to try to fit into your narrative, but when you look more deeply, it’s actually not that weird. If you’re just using numbers to show that some heroes are harder to master than others, it’s like okay… and? What does that have to do with him in his tanking role.
this part is where you keep getting wrong. As you said so yourself,
It’s fine you have your opinion, speculation. But they are your opinion, speculation nonetheless, a conclusion you made based on how you feel.
They are not facts, you don’t know if your reason is causing that decrepancy. I say you made a faulty conclusion based on unrelated data, but again, that’s my opinion as well.
I would even say, who cares if there is such discrepancy? What you’re suggesting is not the reason, either way, why try to reduce that discrepancy in the first place? There are plenty of other heroes with non-perfect role assignment (Greymane is not really a range assassin, Cassia isn’t really a range assassin). One can still argue they are in that role. One can still argue Cho is still in that role (tank) as well. Why try to change it? For what purpose? It’s just screwing QM role placement for no good reason.
I explained in detail how it cannot be helped. You cannot make it right, because ppl will bully you for pickign a Hero as a tank who’s not or picking a Tank while your team has one, and these kind of players always have other excuses, like they consider the Hero bad, or they look at (your) winrates and tell you the Hero is not enough not even in your hands.
Like using your example then: Blaze. You are bullied not to sololane as Blaze because he’s a Tank, so they remove him from the Tanks and now others are bullied who want to Tank as Blaze. The Hero got no other change, so they are still able to Tank or Sololane just as before.
You might be able to create another more detailed Role-system, a dynamic one, where Blaze becomes a Sololaner for the others if your team has a Tank already but it’s not foolproof. Because those who complain about others’ Hero picks usually just use whatever excuse they can to twist the Draft into something they’re familiar with.
Players need to learn that Heroes has many different aspects and playstyles. That’s why I miss old QM, where nothing was forced or mirrored, just get 10 Heroes with no duplicates of players with similar mmr. I learnt a ton from it (believing to this day that that’s the reason why I could became Master ranked).
You didn’t convince me.
Again, Xul is a Bruiser who is matched against Melee Assassins yet was used as Main Tank in Pro League.
Uther was used as Tank and Sololaner as well despite being a Healer.
Deathwing currently mostly used as a Mage.
Varian is a Bruiser yet for QM he’s a Tank, regardless of his Heroic pick.
Aba is a Support but was used soloHealer in Pro League.
And in Masters I saw countless noTank or noHealer teams win.
Seriously, break the imagined boundaries.
Pro League are people who doesn’t give a xxx about category, yes. The only kind of people what matter for this discussion are the ones who do care about categories. Because the other ones don’t care in the first place, so you can put whatever category you want for the hero, it doesn’t matter.
And yes, it would be nice to put Blaze in the bruiser category! Since you are talking about pro: they use Blaze as a solo laner, that is bruiser in the mind of people who care about category. So I guess, he would do better as a bruiser in the typical tank, bruiser, healer and 2 damage dealers composition compared to his tank role at the moment.
So move the problem from yours to others’? You get your Blaze Sololaner and who cares how many ppl will be bullied to not use him as a Tank because of it?
Or just use him as a Sololaner?
Where did I say that? Is this a strawman or what? I am saying that Blaze is played as a bruiser by people who knows him inside out because those people think (and I guess there are reasons for that!) he is more apt as a bruiser than a tank. Some of the playerbase didn’t catch due to him being labeled as a tank. So relabeling him as a bruiser would give people another perception that actually fits his role, played by people who really knows him.
But he can also be played as a Tank and was designed to be a Tank.
And you didn’t “say” this, but it’s the consequence of your wish. Because you could say to them that pros use Blaze on the sololane (and see how that goes), but instead your brought up that he should be a Bruiser labelwise, so ppl will let you sololane as him.
But if ppl are bullying you due to trying to Sololane as Blaze, if he’ll be a Bruiser, ppl will bully others for wanting to Tank with a “Bruiser”.
As I said before, Blaze recieved no changes, so his capacity to sololane or tank is the same.
You said labels matter because ppl won’t let you play certain things the way you want and think would work. And my counterpoint was, that no matter what the label will be, there will be an “issue”, because the issue was never the label. But ppl who shoehorn Heroes in the Storm.