You are correct in that labeling Blaze as a bruiser would be bullying people who wants to play him as a tank. And that also confirms that label does matter. That is the only point I wanted to say by the way. So now, you can discuss with other people about if Cho should or not be labeled as a bruiser.
You say labels matter because certain players bully because of them.
I say labels don’t matter, that ppl can Sololane and Tank with Blaze, they can play him both ways, and it doesn’t matter that he’s a Tank or a Bruiser, he can still do stuff that is believed to be the job of the other Role.
Sure thing… It is exactly what I am saying…
I have feelings and opinions, but I base the as much in logic and data that I can. Many of the responses to my posts, both from you and Volun, were posts that shared feelings, but no reasoning for those feelings. I asked questions because I wanted to understand the logic behind the feelings so I could review and perhaps adjust my own logic.
Just to be clear, I certainly don’t think you’re dumb, but I would like you to share more of your logic with me so I can understand why you have your opposing opinion.
I agree that Cho has more responsibility than most heroes and Gall’s performance hinges on how well the Cho plays. I don’t think Cho’s performance is impacted nearly as much by the Gall’s performance though.
I understand how Cho’Gall’s trait can impact things, I understand a misused Z, and I understand talenting unsynergistically. However, this can happen between any two heroes, not just Cho and Gall. A Muradin can punch another hero out of an Azmodan’s globe, a Falstad can Gust away enemy heroes badly and end up saving their lives. We can’t just say that Cho and Gall are harder to play because they’re in a single body. I understand your logic here, but it’s logic that can and should be applied to any two heroes on the same team.
I think this is good evidence of how Gall’s performance is indicative of a good Cho player, whereas Cho’s performance isn’t nearly as impacted by Gall. It is far more important to have a good player controlling the Cho.
I know Cho doesn’t have the biggest gap, but I created this topic about him. If you would like to create a topic for Yrel or any of the others you can. I created this topic because I have a lot of experience with Cho and I don’t play him like I play other tanks. As I faced off against and played alongside Cho’Galls during the free week, I noticed that many of them were playing a traditional tank style - right in the front - sometimes trying to engage enemy teams at full life and going right into the middle of them to try to disrupt them. It very seldom plays out well for a Cho playing like that.
When I started looking at the data on heroesprofile, I found the discrepancy in his win rate between lower and higher hero levels. That’s when I started to question why that discrepancy existed. The difference in playstyle between new players and me is what made me think I should look at bruiser and tank data and compare that Cho. So I did. Cho’s data falls more closely in line with bruisers than tanks. That’s why I think he should be matched as a bruiser.
I’m not sure where you’re getting this 2-3% difference. What are you referencing here?
I’ve never said anyone is dumb because they don’t agree with me or my reasoning, I simply asked what their reasoning was. I’m trying to take the time and effort to understand the opposing view. I’m open to changing my mind based on solid logic and reasoning, but that hasn’t been presented to me.
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With you and with others here, I tried to highlight that Heroes can be used outside of their Roles, and that they can be considered to have a different role for the QM MM.
These Roles, but more importantly these rules serve the purpose of fairness and balance. They clearly indicate that it effects the winrate of Heroes if they’re matched with more or less tankier enemies.
I also believe that ppl need to adept and learn instead of changing labels. And that the status quo should only be changed, if that benefits the game.
With these I wanted to highlight, that Cho being called a Bruiser would only matter if he would stop being matched against Tanks, but as he is now, he can perfectly handle himself in QM as a Tank and Heroes that can handle Tanks are unfair against teams that lack such Heroes.
Look at overall winrates, or your own winrate (I checked HP) with Cho or mine as him. Once ppl learn the Hero they win a lot with Cho. Just like with any other Hero. They need practice.
And different Heroes of any Role have different amount of stats. HP, CC, Support capabilities. It just makes the game more diverse. Comparing them is like comparing fruits and vegetables. Like Uther has low Heals and high CC, Morales has low CC and high Heals. Doesn’t mean they need changes, especially not special treatment in QM.
So my main point was from the get go, that I fail to see why he should be a Bruiser. Why should we break the current system.
Him having lower HP or CC than XY doesn’t mean one is better than the other or one struggles.
Him having a ton better winrate once ppl learn to play him doesn’t mean he got the wrong label.
(Which is 12-13% difference, 2-3% more than many others on your list (and less than Yrel).)
He has a fine winrate, so he’s fine as is.
And he can Tank, while he’s an overkill on the sololane which hinders your team in most cases (meanwhile I know that not only Bruisers can or should Sololane).
Tldr: you didn’t convince me, I see the current system as fine. I’m against the change then. I don’t want Cho to be buffed (I usually don’t want buffs to my highest performing Heores).
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I appreciate your thorough response.
For the record, I think all heroes who are matched outside of their labeled role should have their label corrected. I think it is misleading and unbalanced, especially for new players. I know that some heroes blur the lines of what their role should be - like Yrel, Blaze, or Imperius, but at least these heroes are matched against characters with the same label so you’re not being mislead.
I don’t think win rating alone is enough to identify a hero’s role properly, but if that is how you would prefer to look at the game, that is your choice.
I never claimed my opinion was a fact. The data I’ve supplied is from a third party. It’s not cherry picked, handcrafted data that I’ve created. You can log into heroesprofile and pull the same exact data - I used the last major patch and QM as my filters if you want to double check the data.
You say my conclusion is faulty and based on unrelated data, but you supply no reasoning why. If you’re going to claim something is faulty or unrelated, you should provide the logic why so it can be reviewed and corrected.
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So is Diablo’s Charge.
Blaze’s charge.
Tyrael has no CC pre 10 and even his CC Heroic is just as easily interruptable.
Actually even Etc’s Slide is not Unstoppable iirc, so interruptable.
No biggie imo.
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Wasn’t it estamblished that he has lower succes winrate wise with allied Tanks?
I might remember wrong.
Blizzard gave Cho the tank role for a reason. Why are people so eager to change him to a bruiser just because he dont fell like a real tank ?
Tanks dont have to be build with alot of CC to be called tanks. You can just check Varian and Tyreal. None of those has stuns like Mura or Blaze but are still tanks by default.
And its not like Cho’s winrate the past 10 patches has been bad. He still has higher winrate then most popular tanks with only Anub and Mei having higher than him in ranked. Even his QM winrate is still above average compared to all the other tanks that on paper has better CC than him.
Only thing that drags his winrate down is because the Cho player need alot more skill then Gall player to make him work.
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Because he can’t function as a tank. He has terrible peel and nothing in his basic abilities to set up kills - a staple of the tank role. His only kill setup ability is a heroic that is easy to see and dodge and is on a 40 second cooldown.
Taunt is better than a stun because it actually makes the hero walk toward you, plus he has a guaranteed follow up slow after taunting someone. Tyrael has a massive, ranged, long duration AOE slow, and he can shield his whole team to go in on a slowed target. Every other tank has basic abilities that allow them to CC or move an enemy into a position for a kill. Cho doesn’t.
Is your position that we can accurately define his role by looking at nothing more than win rate?
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Farfetched to claim “nothing else”, but a winrate against Tanks that are Mirrored because of you does showcase if you can Tank for your team or not.
My 64% wr also tells me this, and I play Tanks and Bruisers the most.
I asked for someone else’s position on a topic. That is not a claim, it is a question.
You already made this statement:
That statement implies you formed your opinion based on a single factor. I have nothing further to debate with you because I am analyzing the hero on more than win rating.
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Congrat on the winrate!
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