As it was already mentioned here before I came back, Cho has balanced QM winrates. 50%.
So can you not dodge my main concern which I already highlighted?
What do you want to achieve with this change?
Do you consider this as a buff, a nerf, or flavour?
If flavour, it’s pointless, why change?
If nerf or buff, I fail to see how he needs either, but I believe, based on data and context, that buffs are the less reasonable.
I answered this quite a few posts ago. There is an expectation to play Cho in a way that his toolkit doesn’t support as well as other tanks’ toolkits do. It’s not a nerf or a buff, it’s in hopes to set a different expectation of the character.
Again, what does this have to do with how Cho gets matched? We have no data based on what his win rate would be if he was matched as a bruiser. Are you suggesting that matching him as a bruiser would increase his win rating? If so, does that mean any bruiser with a win rating above 50% should be matched as tanks? Should tanks below 50% be matched as bruisers?
You’re asking about a hypothetical that can’t be tested because it’s not an issue. If we could test, and found out they could, then yeah, I actually would match them too. But that’s not going to happen. What we DO know is that Cho isn’t underperforming with the tank ruleset in QM.
That is a “my feelings” “argument” there.
Maybe even some skill issues, either from your peers that expect something from you that you can’t do (happens even among Heroes of the same roles) or you not performing well with the Hero and thinking it’s because some “expectations” rather than you misusing the Hero.
As it was explained here already a few times, ppl can play Heroes in different ways, and certain things we expect from Tanks can be done by any Hero.
Cho was released before QM had Role Mirroring. We had data. Blizz has data.
I outright told you.
He’s unfair against Bruisers because they cannot compete with him as frontline in teamfights.
Like Taunt Varian.
That’s dodging and strawmanning.
No, this is based on what his actual health pool is compared to other heroes and his actual toolkit.
What good is data from a system that wasn’t role mirroring compared to a system that does role mirroring? On top of that, you’d be looking at data from so many balance patches ago that it wouldn’t even be valuable to compare it to today’s data.
This isn’t an argument based on anything.
I asked those questions because I was hoping that everyone would realize that changing roles isn’t how a Hero should be balanced. If a hero is over or under performing, you tweak their numbers, you don’t just change their role in the matchmaking. In retrospect, I didn’t accomplish what I had hoped for.
Cho should be changed to a bruiser based on his toolkit and stats. If his win rate goes up drastically, then he needs to be tuned properly.
Alternately, if his damage, stats, and toolkit are reworked to be more tank-like that would make sense, too.
Or you could just leave him where he is where he’s doing just fine. I think you’re just getting too hung up on how a hero should or shouldn’t be played. And frankly, that kind of thinking, especially in a QM setting is going to be a disservice.
All I’m able to do is share my feedback and support it with data. Your posts here are strange to me because half the time it seems like you’re agreeing with me, but then you say things like:
Despite the fact that I have provided the data. I’m not sure what other data you’re looking for - there’s only so much that I can access, but here’s a few highlights:
If my rationale is more defined and backed up by stats and data then provide me with data or stats so I actually have a reason to change my mind. The only data that has been provided is a QM win rate for Cho, but that isn’t enough data to justify whether or not he should be matched as a bruiser.
This is data, what you provided before was just a framework of arguments that can’t be corroborated with how what you perceive is a problem actually is a problem that is worth correcting.
But despite that, it’s not really useful data. All of that affects their win rate how? It’s almost like Cho functions differently. You’re just arbitrarily putting in different filters. Your new approach is inane, almost like how people advocated for performance based matchmaker. Like what does this all mean in terms of how it affects their ability to win?
Like take #3, now calculate the amount of damage mitigated by his armor skin. Now calculate how much damage is not taken because Cho doesn’t have to be in melee range while Gall is doing damage. Now calculate how much more damage a Gall can do because he is in closer range and has a higher/mitigation/can never be cc’d than another spell caster.
I appreciate you trying to make your case, but it’s really poor line of reasoning.
Like if it helps maybe you can just pretend Cho’Gall is a new role called Bumizfark.
Yes, I know. He functions like a bruiser. That’s the whole point of this topic.
The filters I used were QM and the most recent major patch. How are those arbitrary when the topic is discussing how Cho should be placed in QM? I chose damage dealt, CC duration, and hit points because I feel those stats are the most defining between bruisers and tanks. I would have included self-healing and mitigation if there was a site that tracked mitigation with shields and armor, but I don’t know one that does. If you think there is other data that is more valuable, please share it.
What new approach are you talking about? I may not have shared the exact numbers before, but my argument has been based on this data since the beginning. What is silly about using these particular metrics to determine if a hero is a bruiser or a tank?
I’m not asking for a change to affect anyone’s ability to win. I’m asking for a hero to be matched in QM with the types of heroes he most closely matches in terms of data.
I would love if there was data to show this, as I mentioned above. The best I can do is assume that if Cho has his armor up the whole time, that would bring his effective health up to about 4.1k, which would be equivalent to the baseline of the average tank and Li Ming combine. It also would be a massive damage loss to Gall, which brings us to your next point.
I’m glad you asked this because it’s important.
Gall does about 1.93% more damage than your average ranged assassin. I don’t know uptime for Gall’s trait, but even if we assume the absolutely worst of 0% uptime, he’s still very close to the average and he provides very little utility, especially when you consider he’s stuck to another hero.
You’ve said my filters were arbitrary, that my approach was inane, and that my line if reasoning is poor. It would help if you explained why you feel those things rather than end with something sarcastic that doesn’t lend anything to the discussion like this:
Forgive me if I don’t really care, the whole dynamics of what constitutes a bruiser or tank bores me to tears. What matters to me is can he tank, and I would say yes, and if he can and he is in the role, and it’s not hurting him in his win rates, then I just don’t understand why you’re making such a big deal of something that fundamentally doesn’t really even matter.
I appreciate your perspective on this issue. It’s really valuable to hear different viewpoints, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to understand your side better. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
Cool stats. I didn’t realise they existed.
I wonder if there is a way to extract win rates when paired with other heroes?
I mean, you’re talking to someone who was fine with Zarya/Rexaar in the tank role so it’s just something that doesn’t really interest me. The diversity in how heroes function is what excites me in HOTS. And so if I or the average person who plays QM can make something work, even if it doesn’t conform perfectly to what the expected function should be, which is sort of arbitrarily constructed anyways, it doesn’t matter what you call it.
Yes, that’s possible on heroesprofile. Cho is a rare pick and he doesn’t get matched with tank teammates very often since he is a tank himself, so the data is limited to a few hundred matches for each other tank if you’re looking in the silver-platinum range. It’s probably not a large enough sample to be reliable.
I think the main issue that OP has is the expectations of Cho when playing in QM. Take the numerous complaints about Abathur and the “you just don’t know how to play with Abathur on the team”.
I think the issue is that people expect Cho to operate like a traditional tank when he’s most definitely not. Therefore, the OP is not asking for nerfs or buffs but a rebranding of the category Cho is in to communicate to mouth breathers that Cho is not played like a traditional tank.
So in essence, he’s trying to find a way to communicate to players that Cho on your team does not mean you’re going to be able to play in a way that you would if you had a traditional tank.
I think this whole thread is getting convoluted with unnecessary details.
Oh yea it can too. Okay i did a quick grab of all the tanks and did a (rough) comparison.
When there is a tank on the team cho wins 48.4% of the time
When there is a bruiser on the team cho wins 52.8% of the time.
Hmm. Interesting. Whilst i agree with OP in that cho doesn’t really have good tanking qualities, i think to explain these stats comes down to team composition reasons. Bruisers are just better at solo lane / wave clear. Cho brings gall with him making the solo lane overkill.
Whilst tank stats are low in general, outliers stand out like Blaze at 53% (he’s a good solo laner) and Jo at 52% (shes good at clearing lanes and also OP).
Ranged Assassin: deals dmg from range.
Melee Assassin: deals dmg from range.
Tank: tanking for the team.
Healer: heals the team.
Bruiser: ? bruise? brawl? sololane? deal dmg from melee? oh wait… dive? disrupt?
Obviously Assassins can do more dmg than the rest, but other than that, Healer is the only Role that you cannot act like as with other Heroes, because it requires actual Heals.
Every Hero can be built or played into focusing more on dmg or on tanking, that’s how players adept (mostly in QM games where they often lack Heroes dedicated to those roles). And that’s why you can see “offmeta” comps in Draft, where certain Heroes fill niches differing from their labels.
Basically, M.Asssassins, Bruisers and Tanks are all on the same spectrum. Bruisers more or less look and act like either Melee Assassins, or Tanks, lanking in either their dmg, mobility or tankiness. That’s why in the old days, Warriors was the group which consisted of Bruisers and Tanks.
For example, Kerrigan has peel, has a ton of shields, even a Stun, yet she’s still squishy, because her kit doesn’t support a Bruiser or Tank role and putting him against those would negatively affect her winrate. The same can happen from the other side, like when Varian who is only 1/3 of a Tank (due to how his Heroics work) was positively affected by matching him against Bruisers.
Dehaka and Yrel were planned to be Tanks, bit they couldn’t perform well in those roles.
If you match a Tank against Bruisers, it’ll be a buff. Now we could tweak the Hero latter, making them fit into their new role more, but what’s the point? Labels are pointless.
Valeera is a Hero, who has more HP than many Tanks, yet she cannot tank.
So while it’s interesting that you compare the hp of Tanks and Bruisers (and Assassins) regarding this “Cho Tank or not” debate, it’s pointless.
Cho has many defensive tools, enabling him to tank. Like his Armor, and you don’t sacrifice Gall’s dmg for that, it’s a Trait that cam be switched often, makes them harder to play, but still effective.
Your data is raw and misleading. Like we cannot know how his CC is comparable to the best Tanks. And CC is something all the other Roles have, so what’s the point? Like Qhira is probably super high on that, but that proves nothing.
And CC is not everything. Ten 0.2 (2) sec Stun is probably less useful than 1 1.5 sec. Quality CC over quantity. Plus Bodyblocking is part of the tanking job.
So while it’s nice that you provide data, what matters is, that Cho struggles as a Tank or not. And he’s not. So why change?
Because you cannot play him as his role?
There are ppl who can.
When you say things like this it makes it seem like you have no idea what your argument is. In the first sentence, you imply that tanks have a “buff” if matched against bruisers, but then you go on to say labels are pointless. So which is it?
No, she doesn’t. She has less HP than every tank and every bruiser in the game, outside of Rexxar + Misha individually. Health is an important factor in determining what kind of role the character plays. Your statement is also completely in contrast to your original post in this thread:
Seems like you’ve changed your mind about what makes Cho a tank now that you’ve seen a comparison of Cho’s health (less the ranged assassin portion) compared to the average bruiser.
He has about as much as an average bruiser does, but not as much as the average tank. This is hard to prove objectively because there isn’t thorough data for mitigation with armor and shields. I used silence, root, and stun CCs because they are recorded data that I can access. CC can also be used offensively, but part of a tank’s job is also to lockdown a target for a kill, so I think comparing total CC time across the board is a fair representation of a tank performing their role.
It’s data pulled from heroesprofile with a filter of QM - how is that misleading? I did compare his CC to tanks and bruisers. It’s clear that tanks have more CC than bruisers and Cho has about 60% of the CC of the average bruiser. I would have included more CC if the data was available.
Stuns are probably the most important CC to consider though and Cho is still way behind there.
That’s why I compared CC, health pools, and damage dealt. According to you, neither health nor CC matter though. As soon as I share data about tanks and compare it to Cho the data no longer matters to you.
60% of the Cho games are played by players who are level 0-25 where his win rate is 44% and he’s near the bottom of the tanks. That is incredibly low compared to his 57% win rate with players level 25+ on him where he is near the top of tanks. It doesn’t follow a trend of slowly increasing win rate, it’s a spike, which indicates an abnormality with the hero. I believe it is his label and how he’s being matched. New players are basing their playstyle on the information presented to them - which is that he is a tank. This causes them to play in a style not suitable for him.
What part of the concept that heroes are different do you not understand? I had a 20ish% win rate with Probius when I first started. He’s now one of my higher win rate heroes once I got to know how to play with him. Some heroes are abnormal, a hero that is literally attached to another player certainly fits the bill. I would often play Cho’Gall with my friend with him piloting, and we had a terrible win rate. He was not a bad player by any means, he was just not a good Cho. When we switched, our win rates were reversed. And it’s not necessarily that I’m good at tanking, I rarely play them, it’s just I understood Cho’s quirks and learned a lot of all the bad things he was doing and didn’t do it lol.
The way you’re analyzing the data is honestly triggering for me. But I’ll try to remain even keeled. Everything “matters”. It’s just how much do they matter and how does it affect their ability to win. You’re just pointing at individual points of data and shoehorning it into your perception that something is wrong. The reality is Cho, in his current state, with the current rules do not really affect his ability to win in the tank role for QM.
I hate to be so patronizing, but you honestly need to reread how the scientific method works. Making observations from your own experience is fine, but what you’re doing is using that observation and coming to a foregone conclusion, and then working backwards to find data that is analyzed incorrectly to support your conclusion, even though the data shows there isn’t anything wrong.
Like even with your parsing of the data of 0-25. Cho is sitting at 45% which isn’t even all that bad for players that are new to a hero. Diablo is worse, do we need to make him a bruiser? ETC and Garrosh are right there with him, are those bad heroes too that need to reroled? You just seem hell bent on this idea that he has to be a bruiser when none of that is really rooted in anything much other than that you think it should be.
What other individual points of data do you want to look at? I’m happy to look at whatever points of data you’re interested in. I picked health, damage, and CC durations because I felt they were the most important in distinguishing bruisers from tanks. I’m happy to look at other data you feel is valuable, but you need to tell me what other data you’d like to look at. When you suggested looking at Gall’s damage, I happily pulled it so we could compare it to other ranged assassins.
You claim my data is analyzed incorrectly, but you’re not explaining how or why it’s analyzed incorrectly. Do you think it’s unfair to look at averages of tanks versus bruisers? Can you think of a more fair way to analyze it? If so, share your idea with me rather than making a blanket statement that the data is analyzed incorrectly.
You seem to have missed the point I was making entirely. I was making a comparison of Cho’s win rate on new players compared to his win rate on experienced players. You expect that a hero’s win rate will be higher the more experience the player has with the hero. Generally speaking, the harder a hero is to play, the larger this discrepancy will be. Below is a list of QM win rates for heroes with the largest discrepancies in win rate between hero level 0-25 and hero level 25+.
|Hero |0-25 |25+ |Diff|
|Yrel |44.0%|58.4%|14.4%|
|Cho |44.7%|57.5%|12.8%|
|Hogger |48.7%|59.9%|11.2%|
|Kerrigan |48.5%|59.2%|10.7%|
|Gall |46.9%|57.6%|10.7%|
|Medivh |36.4%|46.7%|10.3%|
|Alexstrasza|43.6%|53.6%|10.1%|
|Maiev |44.3%|54.3%|10.0%|
|Mal’Ganis |50.1%|60.0%|9.9%|
|Chen |44.6%|54.2%|9.6%|
|Garrosh |45.8%|55.2%|9.4%|
You’ll notice that the large majority of these heroes are hard and very hard heroes. Cho’Gall and Alexstrasza stick out to me because they are considered medium difficulty heroes. Alex is a healer, but maybe her difficulty really needs to be adjusted. I don’t have enough experience with her to come to a conclusion that I would feel comfortable with. Cho stuck out to me because his abilities aren’t particularly hard to understand, which is why I started looking at his stats compared to bruisers and tanks. There may be others in this group that should really be assigned different roles in QM - perhaps Chen and Garrosh like you suggested, but I haven’t looked at their individual stats and I don’t have a lot of experience playing them.