This proves my point - Cho does none of these well. You want someone with unstoppable, a good escape, or good CC to anchor. Cho isn’t good in any of those departments and on top of that, you’re wasting TWO players by anchoring with him. The only peel Cho has is Hammer of Twilight at 10. Cho’Gall is the most valuable body on his team so he has to save it for himself. It’s not worth spending it to save a solo hero. This means he has effectively zero peel for the rest of his team. Cho doesn’t want to be in the frontline. You want to sit back letting Gall nuke enemies from a distance. It’s much more beneficial for Cho’Gall to hang out in the backline until enemies use their abilities and it’s safe for him to move in. Cho doesn’t want to soak damage either - he’s attached to a ranged assassin and he’s worth 2 kills.
Yes, with the exception of Xul, Malth, Rag, and Thrall since they don’t get matched as bruisers - they are matched as melee assassins by the QM matchmaking system.
They do. I play a ton of Rag and Malth, they are matched against Bruisers. I already told you this in this thread.
Any Hero can anchor.
Cho can peel just by his Q, many Tanks are on this level of Peel, especially baseline.
And he’s excellent on the frontlines as a dmg sponge.
Xul, Malth, Rag, and Thrall are still treated as melee assassin for QM matching.
While they might be matched against eachother, that doesn’t mean they’re being matched as bruisers. Of what QM games I’ve seen in your match history on HP, ragnaros isn’t being matched by the bruiser rule, and there’s either a tank or other bruiser in the game when matched against 1 ‘real’ bruiser, otherwise it’s been melee assassins.
There are games where an imperius or artanis are on the teams, but even if a xul/thrall/ are in the game, the matching only does it once per role for the rule, so having matching numbers is a ‘coincidence’ per se.
Looking back at my screenshots, it seems my memory was inaccurate. I had games as Rag against “true Bruisers”, but not alone. I had Imperius, or Hogger or similar as allies.
It’s not imo. The tank roster has two or more baseline tools to help them position and control enemy heroes.
“Tank” Cho is closer to “bruiser” li li and the ‘peel’ is two fold:
a) opportunity
b) agro
Cho is a more valuable takedown to any non healer takedown, and they deal enough damage to be threatening. If a low hp valla gets behind an over extended ana, it’s not so much that ana may ‘peel’ for valla, but just intercepts the damage because it’s still a kill, so it’s a change of priority, rather than saving an ally and getting out. Granted, having some hp, mitigation, and mobility help, but I think it’s more the case that Cho is good at drawing agro, and less so for ‘baseline’ interrupts since it is committing the positioning of ‘two’ heroes.
Cho is more likely to bait and flank than ‘tank’ imo, but that’s also part of why QM matches as a ‘tank’ to help offer a comparable frontline with something to help lock down a slippery target
I don’t understand your reasoning for why the QM matches him as a tank. You agree that he has less baseline tools than the other tanks. You made an argument that he’s good at drawing aggro, but the aggro he draws isn’t to mitigate damage or enemy CC. He draws aggro because he’s a valuable target. Being able to draw aggro doesn’t make something a tank because every squishy target draws aggro and every healer draws aggro. My counter to that is that tanks try to draw aggro off the characters that naturally draw aggro. Cho’Gall falls into the later character because of his value.
You last point mentions that he’s more likely to bait and flank, which is really what most bruisers are aiming to do. They position themselves and wait for a good time to move in, often from the sides or back.
The reason I brought this topic up in the first place is because every time Cho’Gall is in the free rotation, I see Cho players not positioning correctly and playing like a tank and just getting dominated. I also see teammates who are expecting Cho’Gall to frontline tank to soak damage and CCs and then ping the Cho’Gall a million times when he dies because the entire enemy team jumps on him after a single CC lands. It’s clear that many players in QM have an opinion of how Cho’Gall should be played that’s incorrect.
tanks usually don’t draw agro, that’s why they need tools to control a space or peel for allies or have sustain/mitigation to offset opportunistic poke.
Cho draws agro, so they usually don’t need tools to protect the team the same way a tank would.
There’s not really a comparable target with the bulk of Cho (with gal) so the offset isn’t trying to match the same kind of target, but something that can offset how well Cho can play into the flank.
I said before having a tank is more a handicap so given the limitations of QM matching (ie not enough tanks and healers) it is probably closer to “fair” that qm treats Cho as a tank given the limited tools bruisers have that would be matched against Cho’gal.
OMG yes, I agree. When players build a team around complimenting Chogall, we immediately think of heroes like Auriel or Alextraza. Whilst yes, auriel is nice, I have found games to go so much smoother if there is a tank on the team allowing cho to behave like a bruiser.
This means standing back and letting gall poke with +25% dmg whilst the real tank creates space. Cho then dives in to finish off when the time is right.
Even if QM doesn’t match you with a healer, my experience has found that a tank >>> healer when supporting cho on your team.
Not necessarily. Most bruisers seem to be doing that because they don’t need to assume a tank/frontline role if tank is present. In a non-tank game, it’s the bruisers’ role to assume that frontline, zoning, tank role for the team.
If bruiser doesn’t do that in a non-tank game, your team would have a hard time setting up, keep enemy in range (both within their reach and out of their reach). Your team’s zone would get invaded and distorted for your team to properly group up.
That seems more like those players problem.
Correct me if I’m wrong, as my memory is a little fuzzy on this, but when Cho’Gall is picked in tournaments or in GM/Master games, doesn’t the team comp sometimes be [Cho’Gall + bruiser], not just [Cho’Gall + tank]? IIRC, Cho’Gall does sometimes play a tank role.
I get that you could still argue Cho’Gall doesn’t have the full kit of a tank (even some bruisers are played as a tank, but that doesn’t make them tank so, I know my point above doesn’t mean much), but I agree with some other on this. It’s only fair Cho’Gall gets matched as a tank in QM.
I agree and feel like this is an argument for Cho to be matched as a bruiser. He can act as a frontline against another bruiser and if QM is bruiser vs bruiser, he can fill the frontline role. He doesn’t do well when he’s matched against another tank though because he doesn’t have enough tanking tools to create space for his own team or himself.
This definitely happens, but these are top tier players who are coordinated and understand the basic roles, strengths, and weaknesses of team comps and heroes much more thoroughly than your average QM player.
Simply because he has a large health pool because he counts as 2 heroes? The fact that he has between 20-30% less health than any bruiser/ranged assassin combination in the game isn’t enough of a penalty?
So do you think this should only apply to Cho? All other heroes can be matched with heroes that have good synergy, but Cho can’t? Isn’t the fact that he has synergy with tanks just more evidence that he’s a bruiser? Bruisers have good synergy with tanks because they complement one another without having a large amount of overlap in roles.
Cho still can, Double Tank is queueable and happens at random as well.
The same could happen with Bruisers too.
But if that’s synergistic, it should be the default. Like how Uther, a Healer is really synergistic with orher Healers, yet that doesn’t mean Uther’s labels or MM behaviour should be changed.
Eh, sometimes the Meta requires a Tank and a Bruiser, sometimes no Bruisers, and sometimes Triple Bruiser with no Tank.
I don’t see how that’s an argument.
Considering that many Tanks have Bruiser builds, and there are tanky Bruisers.
My main concern is still this, which wasn’t addressed so far:
Cho as a Tank for QM is based on the same principality as Varian as a Tank. Or Yrel/Imperius/Dehaka as Bruiser. That’s the most fair with an algorythm.
Why should he be changed? What’s the goal here?
To me this sounds like a “buff” to Cho, but he doesn’t need such buffs, as “now you are matched against teams that lack the tools to handle you”.
Thus, I’ll keep defending his place in the QM MM. While highlighting again, that the labels of HotS do not matter, and as yourself also said: other Heroes can be played outside of their og roles.
The same is true to Cho.
I personally mostly play Bruisers and Tanks, and I never felt that Cho is a Bruiser or that I cannot play him as such.
While I feel, that if I wouldn’t face Tanks, my job would be easier, which I find unfair.
Based on what though? Your personal feelings? It sounds like your entire argument is based on your feelings rather than actual data.
He has less tools than a traditional tank does for CC, mitigation, and peel. We know he has considerably less health than other other ranged assassin and bruiser combined. He provides less vision and presence on the map.
I think our disagreement boils down to you arguing based on your feelings, whereas my argument is based on health pool, tools available, and what those tools allow the hero to do. I’d be happy for Cho to be a Tank if they took away some of his damage and gave him more health, mitigation, or CC.
Nope. If you think about how Aba+(some heroes) is considered, 2 heroes occupying the same space while one is immune to CC, having some health less than 2 heroes combined is not much of a penalty. And Aba isn’t even a full hero in terms of team fighting while Gall is.
Besides. It’s QM we’re talking about. Cho’gall shines more as enemy team can’t counter pick.
You have mitigation to Cho, less damage on Gall in a form of his D though.
Anytime any hero is in the free rotation, that opens up opportunities for people who play that hero to be bad at them.
Cho’s presence can’t really be ignored (well aside from cocoon). Unlike a squishy, if he’s in your face, you’re taking a lot of damage.
Yours is also kind of based on feelings and not data. The data shows that Cho’Gall has a 50% win rate in QM. It’s a drop off from his ranked win rate, but not enough to care about really. Does Cho’Gall make a great tank? Not really. Does he have tools to do it, I think so, especially if you get his hammer, and I feel tanks/bruiser distinction has always been blurry anyways. His HP/mitigation is more than fine because of his ability to have damage reduction at will and slip in and out of battle with his Q.
I’m not convinced that a change in the rule is really necessary.
I’m not sure how comparing his health pool to a bruiser and ranged assassin or his abilities to bruisers and tanks is my feelings.
What is the value of this data? Are you suggesting that any bruiser over a 50% win rate should be considered a tank in QM?
This is really the only point I’m trying to make. You could make this statement for most every other bruiser on the game. They’re not great tanks, but they can do it if they’re matched up against other bruisers.
You’re trying to imply your reasoning is based on data, it isn’t. You have a rationale that is more defined, but it’s still mostly based on your feelings and not data. I’m saying he doesn’t really seem to be struggling in QM even with that ruleset. Other bruisers don’t have to contend with that rule. I’m willing to see how those experiments play out, but that’s not going to happen.
It’s possible that he’s over performing in games where he has a tank, and underperforming when he doesn’t. I’m not really sure that’s the case. I could be wrong, but as is, I think Cho performs fine, great even if you adjust your play style. The biggest issue for me when I see Cho tanking, it’s that they don’t realize that they don’t have to stay in melee range and take a ton of damage and never Q out. But that’s really not all that different from a Muradin who never uses toss to disengage and make use of his trait. That’s more a learn to play issue than a tank/bruiser debate.
There are other cases where Cho’s tanking sucks, but that’s usually only a slim minority of games where the enemy comp has such great dive and stickiness. But I have to emphasize that is a very small minority. The simple act of Qing in between the enemy and your backline is a pretty decent enough deterrent. Add in Hammer, and he actually performs quite nice.