Burst or sustain. Armor absorbs damage. period. Each hit you take, the value of your armor keeps going up. In the example I provided, cassia absorbed more than 50% of her entire healthbar in damage before she died.
Even against sustain, if a hero is autoing you at 100 damage a pop ten times, that’s 300 damage absorbed. Your claim that armor and health are virtually interchangeable is beyond absurd.
And that’s because sunder such a circumstance you pin hr own or the Cassia F’s up her stutter stepping she loses it all and then she’s squisher then pretty much every Melee assassin
You can’t prove the concept is OP inherintly and if it’s not OP then there is physically nothing wrong with it other then your personal opinion
Again, never said it was OP. I made this clear in previous posts which you obviously didn’t read.
Your example of health vs armor: Verifiably false and easily proven so
Your example of Qhira vs Cassia: Poorly drawn and self-defeating.
Yet, you won’t respond to these points. Since you obviously have switched from multi-paragraph posting to just boiling your retorts to shortened 2-3 sentences, I think we’re done here.
Until you respond to my points of the value of health over armor, I’m done with you. I’m not going to sit here and play whack-a-mole with various straws of an argument with someone who isn’t even competent enough to read what I post.
Counter my points, or have a nice day.
Dude you got me on the value of health,
That is part of the point because again the idea is that Cassia’s counter is to either power through the armour or to pin her down for it to go away in which case she’s more paper then pretty much anyone you can pin down
So prove why this is bad design because if it’s not OP you don’t have a leg to stand on calling it bad design
Honestly I think the decay is a pretty nice mechanic, and being able to gain avoidance while mounted is great too. I think we can just reduce the timer back to 0.625, and cut the base health by about 50-80, and she should be okay again.
My main issue was the fact that mini-CC like ETC’s W ate her trait, but now it’s the opposite issue where she gets to (partially) maintain her trait even from regular CC.
Math failure spotted.
240+333+216 = 1077 now? 
It’s 789
+1700 brings you to 2489 which is more or less her EHP while moving (2428)
This is around the HP of Azmodan and certainly less than Tyrael who let’s not forget also has a strong shield talent on a 9s CD.
I wish people would read the rest of the thread before they make claims like this. Armor works like this. Health pool/(1-armor value. For cassia it is 1700/(1-.3)=2428.57 EHP. So yes, she is quite Tanky, however she also does not have any baseline self sustain and has a below average AA range while also having a close range kit.
Some people do not simply understand how much difference there is when it comes to Health + Armor more than just simply health which is Armor makes it so that % damage are less effective against them because they simply do not deal the same amount, just like you also said armor is pretty much health bar but in mitigation instead.
Because it’s simple as it gets, a health with 50% armor is basically twice the health, there’s actually many reason why armor reduction is also heavily manditory for high armor targets because even a small interval of reduction is a massive boost of damage dealt whilst used on lower health targets the damage increase is rather mediocre at best.
In general the only counter for these situation is ignore armor but that mechanic is heavily niche and is almost none-existent in the game except for very few herose who require specific abilities to proc them in the first place.
From a purely mathematical perspective, her max damage on a single hero (without talents at level 1) assuming she can trade a few strikes and use an ability in lane: 460 after activating Blood Rage at 5 stacks (not counting her basic attacks/abilities in this lead up) and her self-healing is somewhere around 635ish, at 5 stacks. No talents, just the potential of her base kit.
For comparison:
Malf’s base healing is 380 over 20 seconds (not counting hitting an enemy hero with moonfire for an additional 130 burst).
Lili is 175 pseudorandom once every 4 seconds.
Tyrande is 255 once every 16 seconds (but she has two charges so 510 plus potential for CD reduction with basic attacks).
Ana is 195/2 seconds. Pretty stellar. In the time it takes to position, trade a few blows, and execute Qhira’s passive arguably this might be 4 darts in 8 seconds for 780, with no misses and no opponent pressure.
Brightwing’s Blink heal at 10 is 200+4%/level at 10 comes out to 520 which is fully over 115 points below Qhira’s base kit self heal at 5 stacks without talents at first level.
At max stacks for damage she hits 220 over 4 seconds + 240 at 5 stacks burst when Blood Rage is activated.
For comparison:
Flamestrike does 345 with 7sec CD and Bombs do 341 after the initial 3 second DOT and burst.
Gilnean cocktail deal 220 burst discounting the 55 first enemy hit and darkflight only 88+Razor swipe 126.
Lightning Strike with Lightning Fury at level one puts Cassia at 190 per strike but she has two charges so 380 if she hits both. She has a faster CD at 5 seconds, so this can arguably stack faster in a perfect scenario than Qhira and while almost comparable it doesn’t take into account Qhira’s talents.
The only hero who can outright beat her base kit to base kit is Chromie if she hits with both Sandblast and Dragon’s Breath: 305+215, assuming the player is struck by only a single blast.
Even Zeratul, Cough Cough, only hits 440 with both singularity spike and cleave before talents.
And Lunara, while she might be able to kite forever, her kit only allows 160 for Blossom + 36 over 3 seconds (potentially 9 seconds): 268 (484/9 seconds). Her best potential deals more base damage over (barely more than) twice as much time.
Now I may screw the math up a little and no engagement is ever going to go her way: players will try and counter, kite, interrupt her, etc… But her self-healing potential as a melee assassin with some short–to–mid range abilities exceeds every healer’s kit in the game until heroics. And all untalented.
Her damage potential is likewise around 50% higher than all other assassins, untalented at first level. In nearly the same time period a well-played Valeera with Sinister strike, Blade flurry, and a 3-point eviscerate probably deals better damage. But without self-healing potentially more than a third of her max HP, while having less HP, and having roughly a similar engage distance. The only heroes who truly match her damage potential are the mages, who are squishier and (with the exception of Gul’dan) have much more limited self-sustain, some of which is gated by either talents or quests and are not first level base kits.
So yeah, you can beat her. That’s fine. Play well and she’s managed. But no other hero has that kind of raw potential at first level without talents. And, to be entirely fair and if you play well, she shouldn’t have 5 stacks on a single hero in-lane at first level.
And, to be honest, I enjoy the argument: thank you. I also really have little issue with Qhira’s design (though I really wish they worked her lore in somehow: there’s a tonne of potential story telling there). My issue is with her balance.
What? 635 healing from 5 stacks? Uh, maybe if she triggers healmonger as well she can get close to that, Blood Rage level 1 values are 85 healing and 32 damage per stack, that caps at 425 healing no talents
Also 460 damage, I assume that’s calculating in her 16 second cooldown revolving sweep which is a skillshot fairly hard to hit without initiation CC that does sound right I’ll give you that. 460 damage… I’m just thinking but the only non murky hero whom that is neough to be threatening to are mages who , well we’d assume a melee assassins should counter if they can close the gap and Tracer who is literal hell for skillshot heroes.
Disregarding the fact that that 180 heal is substanial in a duel against Qhira considering it’s on the same cooldown as Carnage give or take a second or two Malf is actually a counter to Qhira with his root, it covers so much area, if a person walks into it’s radius while Qhira is revolving on them she can’t go in for the second stun without getting rooted, and if you position right you could even force her to get rooted regardless of stun or not.
Should be closer to 3 if not two seconds as a good Li Li will have Fast Feet active between 50% and 75% of the time, furthermore without her Aa’s she can’t exactly do anything else after her 6, 8 and 13 second cooldown abilities are on cooldown, also how much damage is Carnage gonna actually do if it’s not initiated with the stun? Which again you can only do every so often in her rotation because the stun has a much worse cooldown.
Tyrande is an off healer and though her trait of reducing armour has a pretty big impact on Qhira I will add that yeah she’s a good healer for Qhira to fight,
Ana also has sleep dart and anti nade both of which if done right can screw over Qhira, and again going back to revolving sweep being somewhat predictable she’s one of the easier melee assassins to land skillshots like that on.
Brightwing also has spell armour which again screws over Qhira’s spell damage and don’t even get me started on how good the phase shift is given Qhira’s whole thing is ganking and winning 1v1’s, I should really add brightwing to the list of “never play qhira into” actually
Now I don’t actually know what you were trying to prove about the healers but here’s a thing you really need to know, every single healer you mentioned isn’t picked for raw healing power Each of them has utility to them, many of that utility can even be used to counter Qhira quite effectively. And if you’re talking that Qhira’s healing is superior to what they can do, well yeah but Qhira also is the only melee assassin barring say Butcher who dosen’t have a dedicated way out that is harder to counter, her only Escape tool her trait (Grappling hook) doubles over as engage and chase tool and has a whopping 25 second CD AND can be blocked by well positioned tanks leaving her stuck in the fight. Which combined with ONCE AGAIN how telegraphed her E can be makes her easier to pin down then most assassins if the Qhira isn’t really smart and patient.
You forget the potential from the no cooldown cast of Living Bomb and you also forget he’s also got AOE which adds another element to him that Qhira dosen’t,
However once again there are many factors you’re missing with the heroes you mention, with Cass you not only forget the output she has as followup with a great Fend you also forget the utility of blinds she brings to the table.
As for Zeratul, keep in mind Zera apparently dosne’t come online damage wise until 7 and then become broken by 16 but once again he dosen’t need the self heal qhira has because unlike Qhira he has an out that cna’t be blocked and isn’t on a 25 second CD
Qhira is an all in assassin that can win 75% of all 1v1’s she’s in but her weaknesses come with how easy it is to really pin her down and without revolving sweep and Grappling hook (both skillshots with long CD’s) she can’t really position well to do more then fight the tank without being in incredible danger.)
Every healer you mentioned was a healer who has utility, in fact you didn’t mention ANY healers who are picked for raw healing output, for that you’d want to look at Lt Morales or Whitemane, Morales having 172 heals PER SECOND not to mention access to 30 armour
Whitemane with Clemency can heal for 325 over 3 seconds and then applying zeal for 82 more healing from hitting a single hero with Searing Lash, not accounting for any talents and AAs, not to mention she can if desperate spam Desperate plea for about 182 eery .5 seconds for a few moments in a desperate situation.
If what the Wiki is telling me is true this is false, in fact Qhira and Valeera are within 100 health of each other, also once again Valeera has escape and mobility tools that aren’t as easily countered not to mention her ulti’s which can both be just get out of jail free cards.
Lastly remember the mages can also stick to the hip or behind the tanks and other people whereas Qhira has to dive in and if she’s not running with a good dive tank in coms with her she’s going in alone putting herself where she can be dived, and justl ike butcher self heal is the only thing she’s got due to the nature of escape compared to other melee assassins.
And that natureo f needing to dive right in creates a whole metric ton of other counters at level 1, raynor for example one really well timed penetrating round and qhira is kind of hooped out of damage.
So in finishing notes, she’s a dive assassin who gets run in Dive comps, and has all the same counters of regular dive compositions, buckle down pin them down and dead.
Thanks for the discussion though dude if you want to keep going by all means but if not good talk
What does it matter if she has no ‘baseline’ sustain if she gets access to very potent healing talents as early as level 4? Again, my biggest pet peeve is people deliberately downplaying how weak or strong something is when they know there is more to their post that they just don’t bother to elaborate on.
Just CC her to make her drop Avoidance and blow her up after. It’s not that hard.
Sami is right, the real value of armor is in healing efficiency. A character with 1700 health and 30 armor is just as tough in most situations as a character with 2428 health. That’s a fact. On the other hand 500 healing on a character with 30 armor is effectively akin to regaining 714 health so this could add up. Although it’s true that armor reduction hurts them way more. With 15% armor reduction the 2428 effective health drops to 2000. Meanwhile another hero with 2428 base health would have 2111 effective HP still. That’s the true bane of high armor reliant heroes, not % damage. Then again tanks and DW has lots of HP so it probably got things muddled.
Anyways, I am glad people kind of realize how important that 30 armor on Cassia really is. I pointed out the importance of this prior to the buffs but only after Cassia has really decent EHP people seem to realize what you deal with. Yes, now Cassia has way more survivability so long she’s on the move. That was kind of the design point, I guess.
I wouldn’t say this alone is broken but she has one of the highest EHP among ranged assassins which I fear will have a negative impact on all the other aspects she needs improvements on. In particular her level 4 self-sustain talent diversity is awful and the AA build in general is still a joke.
The only really potent healing talent is her inner light talent. The other talents are pretty mediocre all considered. I’m all for inner light to be nerfed from 25% to 20% if her other talents are also buffed as well. plate of the whales just does so little healing to be barely noticeable unless your fighting like lunara.
But you’re pretending like the healing isn’t there. When you say she “has no baseline sustain” as an argument in favor of keeping her the way she is, it’s deliberately downplaying her strengths to maintain the narrative that you believe.
Okay let compare her to heroes that do have baseline healing, Qhira has 2000 and has blood rage as her baseline healing that stacks on the number of heroes effected, she also has grappling hook for quick movement to either close in on a target or be used to get out of a bad engage, and revolving sweep to stop damage, also engage on a target, and has 2 stuns in it. She also is notorious for heal monger making her difficult to kill as well.
Tyreal has 2517 health, more than Cassia, has a shield for 336 hit points, a movement speed modifier that also effects his allies, and his q to move wherever his sword is currently. He also has access to Sanctification to make is entire team invulnerable too.
Arthas has 2860 health( so even in the original comment Cassia has less) has death coil for 262, root for locking someone down, and has ghouls for hp packets of 960 as well.
Leoric has 2550 health, has drain hope to heal for 20% of his max health, and has wraith walk to leave whenever he wants. March can also heal for large amount if used against a melee team.
While cassia has one healing ability that has either a massive cooldown of 70 seconds, or much lower one if the enemy team lets her gets stacks off, with zero mobility out of her e to engage someone, along with no cc out of a slow at 7, or aiming Valkyrie, one the hardest to land skill shots because of the wind up, travel time, or just getting clipped by a wall. The reason I do not include her level 4 is because only inner light is a problem, and it is a problem only if she is consistently landing her Q. Once more, all the other heroes I mention get other healing or defensive talents throughout their tiers, while cassia has inner light, possibly war matron, and possible rock stopper if she does not want her ult upgrade, for defensive talents.
It doesn’t matter what Qhira has. That isn’t what we’re discussing. You made the claim that she was strong / tanky but it’s balanced because she has no self sustain and no range.
Verifiably false. Not only does she have sustain on 4 but she also has talents that increase her range.
I’d like to mention that while armor synergizes with healing, it does NOT synergize with %max HP based heals.
Oh yes, I said she had no sustain what so ever.
Second, isn’t her AA build considered bad at the moment? why would you take a bad talent path for bonus AA range when you could take protection during fend or bonus movement speed/ instant mount.
Remember when I made a post when Cassia was reworked, and everyone was like: NAW man she is not OP. Yes her numbers were low but I saw her potential right away.
I knew she would eventually get a buff and be OP