Even tho I have a high WR with him, he is the only hero that is too team dependent and if picked in SL, he is still a huge liability to the team thus the team needs to pick heroes around butcher to support him the best they can.
There are 3 types of butchers
1 - Under 200 meat = 4 vs 5
2 - 200 meat early game = dominating and can hold his own
3 - 200 meat late game = quest done too late, still need to be careful to dive and still needs team to back him up
I get the whole high risk, high reward concept but where a team needs look out for butch while butch himself needs to play safe, this hinders both butch and the team.
For example:
One idea could be gradual increase of attack damage and attack speed.
Change
Quest removed
Keep - Minions still give 1 meat per drop
Keep - Butcher loses 15 meat upon death
Keep - Hero deaths drops 20 meat
New mechanic 1 - For every 15 meat Butcher receives, he gains an additional 9 attack damage and 2% attack speed.
New mechanic 2 - Every 60 meat obtain, this will be a checkpoint. Butch cannot lose meat below each 60 meat checkpoint. Example, if butcher has 72 meat and dies, he loses 12 meat not 15 as 60 is a checkpoint (as is 120,180,240 etc).
This idea as while the game is progress, he is progressing as a stronger hero without being a huge liability to the team.
Current: If butch gets 200 meat = 125 additional attack damage and 25% increase attack speed
My idea: 200 meat = 117 additional attack speed and 26% increase attack speed
This gradual build of damage and meat checkpoints makes players more confident, able to hold themselves and not be a huge liability to the team. As the game progresses, butch progresses (if he doesnt die alot)
No.
Imo, but all that he needs is just to decrease reward buff, but increase meat buff. Also, his furnace blast REALLY needs to be playable.
Something like that:
Upon dying nearby enemy Minions drop 1 Fresh Meat and enemy Heroes drop 10 Fresh Meat. Fresh Meat can be picked up to gain 1 bonus Attack Damage per Meat. The Butcher loses 5 Fresh Meat upon dying.
Quest: Collect 200 Fresh Meat.
Reward: Gain an additional 25 Attack Damage and 25% increased Attack Speed. Heroes continue to drop 5 Fresh Meat, Minions no longer drop Fresh Meat, and Fresh meat is no longer lost on death.
I agree on this, I think it needs an additional CC. Furnace now stuns heroes for 1 or 2 seconds.
I donât understand this and the use of ânearbyâ? Whoâs dying? Butch? Or the minions and enemy hero?
If butch: How can he pick up the meat?
If minions or Heroes: Why would ânearbyâ minions and heroes drop meat as well without them dying as well?
If butch loses 5 meat, there is no risk at all. He can spawn, farm 5 minions and heâs back to his pre-death meat count. Players will just play Butch as if he reached his quest as dying isnât a risk factor to the meat quest
Now are you suggesting that some type of âhigh risk, high reward factorâ should be eliminated from butcher?
Cause your version he can just farm minions all day and not worry about hero kills cause they only give 10 meat.
Not to mention that with the 1 attack damage per meat, he can farm minions quite fast and if paired with lvl 1 chop meat talent he will get his 200 meat quest faster. I mean why focus on heroes when now you can just focus on minions? He will be like Naz and just focus on voodoo stacks.
I am not hating your idea, I am just thinking if I were to play your Butcher, I would just farm minions all day and just charge enemies more often because I only lose 5 meat if I die, which I can easily get back upon spawn from minions.
Petition to turn Furnace Blast into âHYYYYAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHâ which immediately silences and slows nearby enemy heroes for a few seconds. Duration is tripled vs players who think Butcher is OP.
Level 20 upgrade causes the cooldown of HYYYYAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH to be reduced by 5 seconds every time an enemy hero hits Butcher with any form of crowd control. Blinding the Butcher reduces the cooldown by 10 seconds instead.
Generally speaking everyone is team dependent because itâs a team game and no one can really win alone.
I think itâs pretty bad for the team if Butcher just walks around behind his teammates and waits until they kill something. Like this butcher is basically useless and you need your team to carry you. Thatâs how it sounds to me when someone says Butcher is too team dependent.
My best experience with butcher is when i pick him as solo laner and prepare the meat myself. You constantly soak exp from one lane for your team (OMG you are useful for your team even early on) and get meat from those minions as well. Thatâs the main source of meat because in high level matches players will not constantly die as much as compared to Bronze players who all die like 10 times per match. Just look at how many deaths there are per team in an average professional match - sometimes teams win with only 5 kills⊠Butchers donât like that
Even as solo lane butcher you can get to additional meat from hero kills: You just need a teammate who will sometimes come to your lane for a gank - you can bait the enemy laner and charge-stun him when your ally is in range --> easy kill.
You can also leave the solo lane for a quick charge-stun gank and be back for your next minion wave to clear in your solo lane.
You donât need to âwinâ your solo lane - itâs just your safe meat farm spot. Winning comes laterâŠ
Personally i really like it when some heroes can excel with good teamwork and hero synergy. I have a friend that is a good Medivh player and with him Butcher becomes pretty good because every time i charge in i get a portal to get out again. Itâs pretty much removing one weakness of butcher. I solo lane as butcher when i play with him because my Medivh needs to complete his quest first so he needs to be free from exp soaking tasks, just focusing on spamming Qâs.
Iâve said this before, and Iâll say it again:
Butcher can be reworked to get additional HEALTH instead of damage after completing his quest. This way he will not have the potential to become broken beyond repair. He can also get some baseline damage buff, while the bonus damage from his meats is reduced.
Another interesting thing they can do with him would be to make him more like Dehaka, where each meat he collects can be consumed to give him some sort of temporary bonus.
There are a lot of team dependant Heroes.
Heavily team dependant.
Butch indeed needs a rework, but not your idea. It doesnât fixes his problem. Just makes his farming easier and thus making him a bigger stomper and QM-nightmare.
What Butch needs is a kit that doesnât make him feast or famine, or at least not this much, and makes him not scared just because he can lose meat.
I am not sure if this is really needed. How about we have one hero in the game that really represents that feast or famine, hardcore risk/reward theme? Why canât Butcher be like that?
I personally like this a lot and stuff like this can change the teamwork to another level. Making heroes more viable could just make the game more boring.
Tassadar before his latest rework was one of my favorite heroes. He was a pretty unique hero in the Nexus with a special support role. Now heâs a mage, over all stronger hero but still not really that enjoyable for me anymore ^^
Alarak is the Feast or Famine.
(And to a lesser extend Zuljin and Kelthuzad).
But Butch supposed to be this scary boss that âsummons the ghost out of youâ, yet you play him as an immobile Tracer for a lot of lvls. Not fitting for the fantasy. Pretty sure heâll gets rounded up a bit to be more widely available (draft-wise) and to be a full Hero from lvl 1.
I feel like you failed to understand what I meant. So let me explain it in more detail >.>
Butcherâs trait becomes:
Upon dying, nearby enemy minions drop 1 meat and enemy heroes drop 20 meat. Fresh Meat can be picked up to increase your b.a.d by 0,4 per meat. The Butcher loses 15 meat upon dying.
Quest: Collect 200 meat.
Reward: Gain additional 100 attack damage and 25% attack speed. Heroes continue to drop 10 meat, but minions no longer do. You no longer lose meat upon dying. And each additional meat stack over 200 grants you 3-4 (+4%) health rather than 0,4 damage.
The damage bonus has been nerfed to compensate for the baseline damage buffs he should get.
But as you can see, He will still be getting damage increase until he collects 200 meat. AFTER that he will start getting health instead, so he doesnât just skyrocket into madness, like he does now. Having counterplay is a requirement, and currently there isnât anything players can do when they just die before they even leave the stun caused by his charge. So having a more balanced damage will be better for the game. But he will keep getting stronger by getting kills, just so collecting meats would feel rewarding, by off-setting his weakness.
Unlike Diablo, the HP bonus will have no cap, and will be permanent.
The other option I mentioned was the âDehaka styleâ trait:
Enemy heroes drop 1 Fresh Meat upon dying, which you can collect.
You can use âFresh Meatâ to consume up to 5 meat at a time. Each meat consumed grants you different bonuses:
1 meat = increases your attack damage by 20% for 5 seconds.
2 meat = increases your attack damage by 25% and grants you 15 armor for 5 seconds.
3 meat = increases your attack damage by 30%, grants you 20 armor and increases your move speed by 20% for 5 seconds.
4 meat = increases your attack damage by 35%, grants you 25 armor and increases your move speed by 25% for 5 seconds, and heals you by 20% of your max HP.
5 meat = increases your attack damage by 40%, grants you 30 armor, increases your move speed by 30% and your attack speed by 25% for 5 seconds, and heals you for 25% of your max HP.
So as you can see, this version is also really unique and a quite different from what Dehaka has. Although there are some âsimilaritiesâ.
Of course it could just be simplified:
Increase your attack speed by 25% for 8 seconds each meat consumed also increases your attack damage by 10% and heals you for 10% of your max HP over the duration. Can consume up to 5 meat at a time.
Dehaka style butcher would literally be unplayable as he will literally have no dmg for cost of little survival + he would only got it by killing heroes which is broken as e.g. team with Abathur would decrease effectiveness of trait. I would simply change meat value and quest rewards and add more levels to it - 100 meat would be 40% of current bonus dmg. 200 meat would be 80% of current bonus dmg and attack speed boost. 300 meat be 100% of current bonus dmg, attack speed and reduce status times by 50% (or simply immunity to blind). Meat itself would be 0,75 dmg instead 0,5.
Totally agree. Whilst KTZâs early game damage sucks, at least he contributes to team fights by bringing a fully loaded CC kit. Butcherâs early game kit brings very little to the team fight; very little damage, very little CC.
Well technically his survivability skyrockets as butcherâs brandâs life steal is linked to his damage. Another reason why butcherâs early game sucks. Maybe brand returns health based on butcherâs health bar?
I love the idea of a temporary buff for collecting meat. An example could be a level 20 talent: Collecting hero meat resets butcherâs basic abilities.
Kind of like limingâŠexcept butcher actually needs to collect the meat to get the reset instead of merely just being nearby.
And if I were to rework him, maybe something like:
No damage increase from meat.
Minions drop 1 meat on death, killed heroes drop 25 meat.
Attacking a hero gives 2 meat, if they are slowed or Branded it gives 5 instead.
Meat is not lost on death, maximum of 50 meat.
Activate trait to consume 10 meat, increasing movement speed by 10%, and attack speed by 25% for 3 seconds and reducing cooldowns by 1 second.
Reactivating while the buff is up refreshes the duration, and stacks it up to 30% movement speed and 75% attack speed.
