Blizzard's MM is bad and is not going to keep new players

Wrong.

Don’t speak as if I’m the same type of self fulfilling prophecist loser as you. I said it before but apparently you cant read: i always give 100%, I never give up.

I honestly don’t care about all your excuses. All I see is someone who thinks they know everything and therefore excuses a defeatist attitude when you think you can’t win.

A part from the clip that “the moron”, in your words, Lucifer’s provided, you say that “you knew it was a loss at the start”

That is just pure hogwash.

You like to pretend you know when you lose, but a big reason that yountend to be right, is most likely because of you. You believe you will lose, so you stop trying seriously, and then you lose and you were “proven” right.

You are your own worst enemy.

1 Like

Don’t confuse the “I’m not with them” with “I’m part of the majority”.
If the majority would actually be willing to wait for games, HL, TL, SL and UD were and would be more popular (decreasing their wait times btw).
But QM and ARAM is. Because it’s fast and ppl want fast games even if it’s not “quality”.
You don’t need to be part of the majority or agree with it, feel free to have your opinion, like “I dislike this”, but know that you’re the minority, that’s all. So try to focus less on the fact that the forums are not a representation of the whole Community, you can be sure Blizz (who has all the internal data) didn’t rolled the QM rule in question back due to “us” or due to a loud minority.


Only if you’re not

.
It’s never about the high lvls. They have high queue times anyway. It was about the rest.
Weird fixation on hating high ranks and trying to blame stuff on them.

Again: every rank had complainers (not talking about how Blizz prob saw the queue time and “games played/day” changes in their data).

Sometimes it’s ok to admit you’re wrong.

3 Likes

It’s not self-fulfilling, it’s a pattern observed, and it was the correct logical conclusion.

This was never contested, nor is it relevant.

But I had never typed it until I CONFIRMED IT, you cannot possibly look at that game and not come to the same conclusion as me unless you are either a) deceptive or b) also a moron, and I’m actually giving you the credit of NOT being moronic, so that leaves deceit… why?

I don’t pretend, I believe it. You could make an argument that I cause the loss, but you are literally assuming that and the burden of proof is on you if you want to go that route as nobody cannot prove/disprove a hypothetical based on an assumption. You people really need to stop with your absolutes. Just because I am not perfect and not right 100% of the time doesn’t invalidate my argument. Because I never claimed absolute certainty. In fact, I’m merely stating my experience and opinion based off of it. Stop thinking someone not agreeing with you or something not being 100% true all the time that it means you are somehow being attacked… there’s no shame in discussing ideas and not win internet points for it.

How do you determine what the majority wants? How did Blizzard do this? Is it reliable?
How is the wait time relevant to it’s popularity? How did you determine this?

Or maybe it’s because of something else? I play ARAM more than SL and that’s only because I don’t want to play SL alone because it’s dreadful. In ARAM, I still try to win, but I know that I’m not expected to play to my best and to play my best heroes. It’s not because I want “faster games”, I just play it because it’s not serious and I can familiarize myself with a hero or build in a forgiving yet still somewhat competitive environment. Most games are a stomp and not challenging, but that’s not why I play ARAM. Although, I do wish they made ARAM better and have a post suggesting ways on how we might do that.

1 Like

How is it not relevant when you imply that I’d give up like you?

Who cares when you typed it?

Point is that you believed it was lost from the start. You believed that no matter what you would do or how hard you’d try to win, you would not. So why would you bother trying hard? → Self fulfilling prophecy.

Do you even know what deceit means?
Let’s go over this thoroughly:
FACT: That game was lost
NOT A FACT: The game was 100% lost regardless of anything when the game started
NOT A FACT: There was absolutely no chance of winning at the time of the clip if your team had acted differently, instead of whining and blaming each other.
Yes, it would be unlikely and difficult, but it might not have been completely impossible.
But when you don’t even try, it definitely becomes impossible.

YOU are the one being deceitful. YOU are the one trying to convince others of something that is not true.
Whereas I, and others, are saying that there was at least A CHANCE. And that you are not omnipotent in your powers of pattern recognition.

That’s the difference between us I guess.

I NEVER come to a conclusion that a game cannot be won at the start. I can make educated guesses that it will be harder, but never that it cannot be won. And as it is, the harder I assume it will be, the harder I play.
You on the other hand? You probably do the reverse.

Technically, Lucifer already provided said proof.
Arguably that ending was pretty dis favorable, but there you are, too busy whining to try to win. And I’ll refer to that statement of yours again, that “You knew you were going to lose from the start”
That is the best proof anyone could find. It shows a problematic mentality

What the hell are you even talking about?

Also the fact that you say

We’re the ones that need to stop with our “absolutes”?

We’re arguing AGAINST the use of absolutes! You’re the one arguing FOR absolutes!

You’re the one arguing that based on your pattern recognition (which is already based on your ABILITY and not something tangible or relatable; which begs the question; why should we believe that your pattern recognition ability is worth anything? Because you’ve played a lot of SL matches(which’ statistics are lost on a banned account or something?)? Why would that be a guarantee of analysis ability?) that you can recognize a loss or win before a match has even started, in the belief of your absolute power of foresight that can reliably see every single variable of the game, of the enemies and of your allies, to determine that in no way in any way at all is it possible that a comeback is possible because of your pattern recognition skills?

You can keep believing in that if you want. Keep throwing winnable games because of your amazing powers if you want.

I prefer to give it my all regardless of my perceived odds at winning.

1 Like

I can’t, unless Blizz made a change. It’s their “need” to catter to the majority.

Data analysis, mostly statistics (not just raw numbers, but what do they mean, considering known factors).

Yes.

Queue times don’t want to be long, but the MM needs to fulfill certain requirments. More ppl = easier job = faster queue. So if a gamemode has fast queue, it’s popular and if it’s slow, it’s not.
(Obviously there are some other factors, like ARAM not having an MM and SL being more strict with MMR averaging from my experience, but those are not big enough to disqualify their popularity.)

2 Likes

OK, quick concept on statistics. On any normal distribution you have a bell-shaped curve where 95% of the population resides in the middle of the curve and 2.5% on either tail. You are taking the pain points of the few and extrapolating them to everyone. I have never once had a problem with wait times because I’m not great at the game, and I’m not terrible… I’m somewhere in the middle (like the majority of the playerbase).

I’m not saying this because I hate high level players… its just math. The fewer people there are who are similar to you, the longer its going to take to find a good game.

I think you’re drawing the wrong conclusions. I find the draft in SL extremely boring. Its waiting 8-10 minutes to play a 20 minute game. If I made you sit through an hour commercial before you can watch 2 hour movie… would everyone want to do that?

EDIT: The draft should take half the time it currently does. If Blizz did that I bet that mode would increase in popularity dramatically. Oh well, just another idea for the forum clique to not like.

You have this zero-sum mentality where its a false choice between waiting 30 seconds or 12 minutes. Like theres nothing in between. In reality its like a slider with speed on the left and quality on the right. The answer is finding the balance between those 2 attributes. All I am saying is to move the slider a couple notches to the right… not all the way to the right.

Umm… source? How do you know what the community wants other than the vocal minority on these forums? Is the community happy now… with the current state? If so, how do you know this?

Man… again… its just math. I am using statistics, probability, and logic to form my opinion. You have those on the forum who complained they waited too long for a game. Who was waiting too long? High level players.

Look… you are better than me at this game. Im not mad at you about that, Im just saying in the playerbase there are more of me than there are of you.

Heh, you have a lot of posts out there… and ‘humility’ and ‘open-mindedness’ aren’t the first 2 words that come to my head after I read them. So practicing what one preaches, might be the medicine for the day. :wink:

2 Likes

I never said that, I said you’d be a fool to disagree that when I made the call, it was correct, nothing to do with what you believe I’m implying (assuming).

Not till I confirmed it, if not I’d have said GG in draft or way before the game winning boss was taken. Stop assuming stuff and stop putting words in my mouth.

Only when I typed it… I may have thought we don’t have a sub 49.99% chance to win this one, we are at disadvantage. But when I call GG, it’s because that chance is lower than 1% now. Understand?

At the point where I call GG, it was. Do you you also call someone with a different opinion that your TV and College Teachers a Conspiracy Theorist, regardless of the content of their opinion? By your logic, it would seem you would. Even though, conspiracies exist, labeling someone as such only demonstrates that you are more interesting in being seen as right, than know the truth. Because if you could disprove it, you wouldn’t need to resort to fallacies and assumptions to achieve… what are you trying to even argue?

Agreed

Hindsight 20/20. When clip ended, game was over no matter what, unless a miracle like entire enemy team DCs.

It’s not, nothing is a guarantee (absolute)

That is never what I said. I said I’m right ~90% of the time when I make a GG call (I was proven wrong in the past and admitted to it, SHOCKER!). I admit I’m flawed, and definitely don’t see a “prophecy”, but that statistically, I can still trust my “feeling” because it has reliably done so in the past, more often than not. That is the justification for why I have X opinion (still not an absolute).

I don’t go into a game and see our comp is not the best vs the enemy and think GG (Like you would like to believe), I try to figure out a way to win, once I am out of ideas and also see that my team is just running around like chickens with their heads recently cut off, I can call GG, because this similar situation, feeling and observations based on previous experiences tell me that the game is over. I would not ever stop trying when I believe I can win… that’d be stupid, nor would I give up after 1 team fight like most noobs usually do.

How about this, let’s setup a watch party where we watch games and I will at one point tell you Blue/Red Team wins. Let’s do this 10 times and I bet you that I only get it wrong once. 90%. Games chosen randomly from SL games between Silver1 and Plat5. Do you believe that I can do that?

I’ll show you that they are not. In fact, I’ll concede everything if you can find an SL game S1 to P5 where a team won a game where they were down 4 levels previously (At any point in the game).

Which Data?

How can I verify this is accurate? If you cannot verify because you don’t know/have access, why do you believe/trust what you said in the first place to be accurate?

Just because you’re average MMR/Rank-wise doesn’t mean your anecdotal evidence means anything, because there were Silver, Gold and Plat players (the average middle grounds) that said their wait times increased. Which shouldn’t be a surprise because QM isn’t that tight on mmr averaging and the new rule which was culprit had to do with Roles, not Ranks.

I am high lvl yet I didn’t have the big queue times I read and heard about.

Blizz rolling back the rule. You know they have data about queue times too, right? Like anything that happens ingame can be collected and analysed.

I actually only saw the middleground complain.

That’s your take. Like you look at ppl as close-minded if they’re against your ideas. Because you cannot admit you’re wrong and search fault in others, hiding behind some fake logic. Just like how you blame MM and other players for your losses.
And humility? I’m the one who admits they’re the minority while you refuse it just because there are categories/topics where you are the majority which has nothing to do with this topic.
Being Gold =/= your problems are the average problems (or that they are real).
Maybe

1 Like

You’re being unnecessarily defensive. What forum clique, as you like to call it, often voice out is the realistic take on the matter, considering current HotS situation (sent to Classic team, lack of dev/manpower, dwindling playerbase). The non-forum players, who rarely ever visit the forum, don’t really consider that. It is often times apparent that they think HotS is like the usual AAA games with enough support from the company. It’s not.

As for your suggestion. How do you propose devs accomplish that? Always think of the catch, the other end of downside/change that needs to be made. I can think of couple. Like, removing the 3rd ban and revert back to 2 bans? But you do know 3rd ban is what players requested, right? Because of the growing hero numbers. Reduce timer during ban, picks? That’s more feasible, but is that what players want? Afaik, they already reduced the timer once. And at least in pro scene (or what’s left of it), timer gets kinda tight. To make the draft time reduce by half? That’s a big ask.
(this is all assuming devs have the time to work on this btw)

To me at least, the draft time was not much of an issue. The game has already started, the mind game between two teams, or even among your own team. Draft/hero picks influence heavily on the game outcome so.

2 Likes

No, it wouldn’t be.

“reading” is not just the meaning inferred from one word directly after the other; it is the entirely of what is presented. It is more than a clause, it is more than a sentence. The use of a ‘quote’ can be to provide context, or ‘evidence’, but the exact of what is quoted does not mean that only what is quoted is the point of reference.

The segment I quoted is not the entirely of what I addressed, and that would be made evident if you would read it through ‘entirely’ and not respond to items as you see it.

What you reply to me is line-item responses that filter out what is there instead of reacting to presumptions you are inserting because it’s easier to make something else up instead of taking the time to process what is actually there. At not point did I suggest

but that is the response you offered because you assumed that I didn’t “Read” your quote, and thus use that to rationalize the condition of not reading through what I wrote.

No, they didn’t. However, since you persist in showing how you reaffirm your presumptions with bad information – such as your reply to me that conjures up something that isn’t present, and then trie to refute ‘that’, you are indicating the very issue I am trying to present, and yet you act like I am not, and ignore it.

The capacity for people to think they ‘don’t stand a chance’ just means they don’t ‘take the chance’ and convince themselves of inaction. You demonstrate that conduct in these topics and use that as excuses for bad behavior to reinforce the bad behavior because you’re already convinced you have reasons to do so by ignoring options presented to you.

Human action is not a ‘chance’, and not taking action has direct consequences related to the missed opportunity.

“comebacks are rare” because people already convinced themselves to not recognize the opportunity because they’ve already convinced themselves they don’t ‘have a chance’. Part of the fundemental issue of these options, how they happen, and the success is derived entirely from preparation and experience. Those are things people routinely deny themselves because they look at it as “Chance” and not something more deliberate. Yes, there are ‘odds’ and elements outside of a person’s own direct control, but these particular attitudes are frequently gated behind specific ‘skill’ breakdowns largely because those that don’t learn to make and use the opportunity (oh an opponent has to ‘make a mistake’ rather than the player ‘forcing’ them to make a mistake) don’t make the effort because they’re already convinced it is ‘waste’ and then circular-reasoning themselves into accepting bad outcomes out of incomplete data.

While you may not like that the showing of the replay can be used to ‘embarrass’ the poster, if what they said is true, they don’t have anything to be ‘embarrassed about’ and it can act as confirmation of the issue presented by people claiming something has a conclusion apart from what they are willing to consider.

A major issue of not just the game, but many like it, is that people are already convinced something breaks down into only two options. One they cast as being horrible, so they are ‘forced’ to take the only other option they consider. They are blind-siding themselves with that approach, refuse to consider otherwise, and then assume things about anyone else that doesn’t directly agree with them in favor of prattling off more about what they personally can’t do, despite demonstrations contrary to their consideration.

You attitude to me is such that you think I did not read the extent of your reply, so you use that to not read through mine, and then attack what I wrote through the ignorance of your actions.

That is on you, and that is the same issue people take with the game in how they neglect possibilities because they don’t ‘read’ the situation through, and then just look to fault others because they’d rather think themselves to be ‘right’ than to actually bother to check, try something, and do better.

So in that light, I suggest you bit in a bit better effort and read this stuff through instead of ranting off on your disconnected strawman that you found, somehow, easier to shape into your ironic reply.

2 Likes

Yea that’s exactly them being “openminded” as they preach :slight_smile:

Let’s try to reiterate:

My point is that people who put too much emphasis on “I can only enjoy it if we can win” tend to prematurely decide the chances of winning and end up sabotaging the game in various ways.
They go afk, they call GG in 4 minutes, they start flaming the team, and so on. Their chances of winning are lowered because they presume to know how it ends.
And this is not only the effect on others through their ingame actions; it’s also the effect on themselves as a mental state. Someone who, for instance, decide that the game is lost 4 minutes into the game but doesn’t say anything about it, are likely to start playing worse as to them it wont matter. In their mind, regardless of whether they play at 100% or 10%, they will lose regardless.
This will naturally differ from person to person.
KishMyAxe, your comment of “I knew from the start—” would at least put you in that mental category. Naturally that is only an assumption/guess.

If you can make an prediction that “This game is totally lost” before the gates opens, but it doesn’t interfere AT ALL with your play, you still play 100% fully focused on trying to win throughout the match until it’s truly over, and no one would be able to tell the difference between you playing a game you know you will win or one you know you will lose, then my overall comments do not relate to you, no.

A lot of people don’t realize that one’s mental state has a lot to do with their current skill. Depending on the person, it doesn’t take a lot for someone to lose their focus.

I am not going to argue about your 90% prediction rate claim or make any more assertions as to whether your 90% prediction rate is a result of self fulfilling prophecies.

What I will say is that if you predict that you will lose a game, but wont let it hinder you in the slightest and you are as focused as ever, then you have my respect, as that is a rare trait.
The majority of victory focused players are quite the opposite.

2 Likes

Is this thread there yet? I mean really, it should have ended long ago. The OP made a suggested change to ranked where the core philosophy of the idea was made with the assumption that the OP isn’t an anti-social player. The OP also suggested a “community council” (of which he would be one) would decide what players are allowed to play ranked, based on them being upstanding members of the community.

Lucifer then links two matches where the OP is throwing abuse at others. As I already said to the OP, this invalidates his idea, at least where his personal integrity supports it and it is a clear illustration why a community council would suck (deliberate choice of word).

OP, you have some okay ideas, most of us have asked for in game Guilds/Communities since launch. History though proves that forcing people to play only as groups of five, leads to that version of ranked (Team League) being the most unpopular PVP mode in Hots and even far less popular than VS AI.

I feel the above should be a sticky on the main forum or in a pop up window when people log into these forums.

There is no forum clique, most of the regulars had disagreed with someone at some point, but most of us have been adult enough to keep things civil and kept an open mind to hearing criticism or a different point of view, without construing it as a personal attack. This is a discussion forum after all!

Many people come here with super ideas daily, which often have been suggested or are supported by the community, but they aren’t possible unless Hots suddenly is given more than token support from Blizzard. Blizzard still hasn’t fixed an issue with their game client after two months, so I would be shocked if they suddenly reversed their position on Hots and suddenly funded it as a AAA game again.

Peace out and all that!

Thanks to Karabars - Yo, this post belongs over here!

2 Likes

Wrong thread, same folks :smiley:

2 Likes

Oh for the love of… Yes you’re right Karabars, I had both in tabs and I responded to the wrong one as it has exactly the same few people arguing for a certain issue.

I’m just going to leave it up, whatevers. :wink:

2 Likes

It’s just the easiest way to cope for ignorant / delusional people. Rather than admit that their idea is bad or poorly thought out, it’s simpler to simply imply that everyone else is apart of a huge circle of weirdos that don’t care at all about the forum in favour of agreeing with each other in some weird sense of solidarity.

It really is just so stupid. In their minds, this would be a common situation:

“Hey… (Name of guy) just said something rather stupid on (name of thread). But he’s arguing against someone not apart of our clique, so let’s all pretend we agree with his stupid comment so we can show that OP that we actually agree with how wrong he is!”

What’s even more dumbfounding is that if they actually believe that the forum is just one massive clique that only care to stroke each other’s ego, then why do they even bother saying anything. Would seem utterly pointless.

3 Likes

To fight the unjust world. Everyone is a Hero in their own story. Viva RevoLúcio!

1 Like

Your anecdotal evidence isn’t any better than mine.

Roles and ranks should be included when trying to put together a balanced matchup and there is no possible logic that says it shouldn’t. The only downside is the amount of time it takes to get there. So how much time is “too long” in your opinion?

Then why are you against wait a little longer than you are now to increase the odds of getting a balanced matchup?

Blizz has no idea why a player uninstalls their game or simply never returns. But they sure know who is complaining on the forums.

I’m pretty sure I am in the middleground. My complaint is the exact opposite. The only thing that has ever made me wanna quit this game is the all too frequent 1-sided stomps (even when I’m on the winning side).

Sorry, I’ve just never seen a new idea or a substantial change that you have liked. Like I posted in another thread… “I’m not negative, its just that every idea is terrible!” BTW… I didnt create this thread.

Yeah, dealing with people who are always wrong is tough. I don’t know how you do it. :slight_smile:

Heh, please quote where this occurred…

Thats exactly what I am suggesting :slight_smile: Theres 12 rounds of picking/banning at 45 seconds each… I’ve never needed 45 seconds because I’m thinking about what I’m gonna do while other players are making their picks.