Are Guides on Icy Veins Accurate?

Looking between Icy Veins, and what I see in-game, there is often discrepancy between what is “recommended” and what players actually pick in-game.

As someone who has played Azmo WAY too much, one of the biggest things that stands out to me, is the level 4 talent choice with Azmo. The guide on Icy Veins calls Army of Hell an “easy trap to fall into,” but from what I’ve seen in-game and on Hots Logs, Army of Hell is the MOST popular talent at that level. Picked at a rate of almost 40%, across all leagues, it also has the highest win rate, according to Hots Logs.

By contrast, Icy Veins recommends Hell Forged Armor, with the guide’s author, Oxygen, writing, “This Talent single-handedly makes Summon Demon Warrior worth using in most cases, whereas it would otherwise be a very situational Ability.”

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What does it do? I play Azmo for fun, but I don’t know the name of his talents also don’t know the name of any talent in the game but a few.

With azmo I would be shocked if his 1 was not wrath and his 4 was not the CDR.

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No. Icy veins is better than nothing for brand new players who are just starting the game, but they very often give bad advice.

Hellforged Armor

Demon Warriors and Lieutenants gain 25 Armor and last 4 seconds longer.

I would agree. CDR makes such a difference that it’s hard not to pick it.

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The guides are often slow to react, old and irrelevant, and not particularly important to begin with.

You’ll have far more success asking for advice on the forums.

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The guides are written by a few individuals.
So they will always come with opinions and preferences.

I generally don’t even bother looking at them, because I follow my own preferences.

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The guide says to pick Hellforged Armor because the “true utility” of Azmo’s W comes from the demon warrior’s body being able to selectively take damage for you, and absorb skill shots. And the reason Army of Hell is considered a trap is because it increases the CD of W by 10 seconds, which weakens Azmo capability to use W in the suggested fashion.

The obvious trade off is that with Army of Hell’s 2 demon warriors, you would have more burst damage in the early game (they tend to die too quick in the late game).

I suppose what I am looking for, in this specific instance, is whether there is a consensus on the forums as to which is the appropriate use.

part of the issue of guides is that they do tend to only consider 1 particular use for an ability, or talent, and then base all other picks around mix/max selections to suit that one idea.

the design intent for talents is that different circumstances make some more advantageous than others as the game is NOT optimized in play and players need to build around offsetting weaknesses or complimenting conditional strengths.

One of the main flaws of the playerbase mindset comes with the idea that an ability should pretty much be used whenever it’s off cooldown, and then reinforce, or rewards, a mindset of useless spam.

Yes, for soaking damage, the armor/duration is a better options; however on maps that are farther from lanes, it’s less about spamming the demons and rather timing them so they have better impact for when they’re alive.

Army of hell is for skirmesse that allow teams to attack from multiple sides (the demon might approach outside the line of fire and put pressure on backline heroes that have to waste time or positioning to deal with them)

Hellforged armor works better on aram where adding more durability to a lane can make the difference on getting the push momentum for taking towers/forts

and battleborn works with off-lane big maps where azmo may want more lieutenants for global soaking. Each of those could be spelled out to have maps, modes or teams on which they can shine, and I generally find guides don’t take those sort of possibilities into consideration as having an tl;dr this/that conclusion makes them seem more authoritative (or skilled) at the game, and thus make the advice better suited for players that don’t want to know better, or have time to think deeper than one-trick builds.



most of what I wrote was fairly generic on ‘guides’ but being particular to Icy Veins, as Ocek said, they tend to be out of date or conclude “no update needed” despite some changes happening, or neglect options from the first place, and just maintain a singular focus on their builds/advise.

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Imo they’re pretty good for most people. At higher levels you have the knowledge to make your own decisions but i think that it offers the easiest talents go get value out of.

This is why people say Uther is a bad healer.
I’m not trying to top people off, unless we’re nowhere near combat and I have mana to spare.
Trying to time the burst heals and armor to cause the enemy to extend at a location that would have been ideal if my heal didn’t happen at that exact time.

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and it’s also why i generally hate having a Lucio on my team; oh look, another soundwave boop that saved an enemy hero. Oh look, Sound Barrier was used, and nobody took any damage in that duration. -.-

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I don’t even think Icy Viens is being actively supported…

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They can be. Anyone can make a guide on icy veins. pros and noobs alike. Do a little bit of research on what ever you find.

Than thats the major issue, as good guides should cover both sides (the good and bad) of any aspect as much as they can. Icy veins doesnt do this on the talent aspect at all, which makes it a horrible source in general.

Even if a talent is effectively useless at your skill level, you can state why it is. But you should also see why it can work on other skill levels and still mention that.

Icy veins seems to aim towards a bit higher skill by relying on things like ‘a minion can block a skillshot’, yet this is already something on a higher skill level. Very likely players that are capable enough to decide their talent build on their own. People searching info on icy veins are generaly not that skilled, so are being completely misguided and do not even get any valuable info. They are being guided towards a talent that causes them to lose more often.

But the main issue remains: there is no guide ingame that assists the players by giving them extended info about talents. Especialy on very situational talents its good to mention that they are this situational.

And then there are people who never care about that info and just take whatever mentions the highest raw damage value.
(for a part i miss the requirement to unlock certain talents by a level restriction. Nuclear Option would be excelent behind a level 50 requirement :stuck_out_tongue: )

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We actually started a thread to collect the builds of some of the heroes:

The thing is, builds are not enough. They can be something a player can test, but it doesnt explain them why it works, or doesnt work.

If i take the nuclear option example again and quote the icyveins description:

Nuclear Option’s time to detonate takes too long and allows enemies to escape it with ease. As a result, it also keeps D.Va in Pilot Form longer, making her more vulnerable in general.

it does not describe enough. Yes, it states its situational and in most cases not recommended. But there is no mention on why and when it can work. I would for example change it to:

Nuclear Option’s time to detonate takes too long and allows enemies to escape it with ease. If your team can ensure that the enemy will remain in range, it can be a viable talent. But in most cases its better to avoid taking this talent as it ends up being counter productive.
As a side effect, it also keeps D.Va in Pilot Form longer, making her more vulnerable in general. But if your team has sufficient crowd control, this should not be an issue.
A few heroes do have an increased utility with this talent as garrosh can throw the mech to enemies, and extended crowd control effects like for example Void prison, Mosh pit and Ley line seal generaly synergize well.

A quick hall of builds is not going to give such in depth info.

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Also factually incorrect since you can re-mech after 4 seconds, same as without the talent. If anything it helps you by standing in a huge AoE most players don’t want to approach.
Granted, I rarely use Nuclear Options since I am more “cancer build” D.va who always matrixes and gets new mechs.

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God no, never do that. Average forum poster is a gold MMR QM player.

Instead go to heroesprofiles and use the statistical information there to your advantage. If there are talents that are close in terms of winrate and popularity, then try both and see which makes you win more.

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Says someone, who complains about Tracer :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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I dont complain I just ban her.

And Tracer is the highest popularity assassin in higher ranks for a reason. It may be that bug, it may be something else. Its insane though that the bug is still there.

I play master and I don’t see her there, even banned mostly. She appears 1-2 times for 20 games, considering that she gets banned only several times by enemy team, when in other games she’s open.