This is also directly related to how strong the power play is in the first place. The later the tsunami, the less impressive both the first and the extra free one is.
Is it a good/great card? Yes. Do I not care for the design that makes it worst in rogue? Also yes.
Is it particularly problematic? No, not really. As far as power plays go, there are better in the meta, just not so much when you are talking turn 4 and 5.
Bump Skyla so that she is happening on 6 or 7? Eh, it’s often no longer even particularly threatening.
But Conman can’t do what it does if there isn’t a broken interaction before it.
This is like saying Tsunami is broken because Skyla makes it 0.
Nerf Tsunami.
Tsunami costing 0 is the problem, not Tsunami.
Conman playing Tsunami for 4 mana isn’t the problem.
The fact that Tsunami got played as early as it did is the original problem.
For the same reason Conman isn’t the problem because Tsunami is played on turn 4/5.
Sure it is enabled by cheating out a big spell, but cheating out tsunami is not near as powerful if you cant immediately follow it up by cheating another 10 mana from conman
If the deck just played 1 big spell early and then needed a turn to reset before cheating another one out, it would be far less obnoxious to face it.
I know deep down you are really just concerned that if conman is changed, the deck would be much worse xD
I think it should be changed and i would rather they changed it than skyla if i had to choose between the two
It is the most problematic part of the deck because most people are doing their best to stop the first big spell that comes out and when they stop that one, they cant handle the second one immediately afterward
That is just bad design when the deck wins games on brute force of cheating 20 mana over two turns while the spells it cheats develop the board, damage the opponents board and deal face damage. Its not winning games off of nuanced and skilled gameplay, its just dumping more stats than anything else can in a 2 turn period
Bro you literally are just yapping to save face and try to force people to agree with your line of thinking. So many others besides myself have said conman is an issue with big spell mage. And it is.
I don’t even care if I’m being honest. I don’t even play the deck anymore.
It is not the most problematic part of the deck. Skyla is.
You don’t nerf a card that isn’t an overall problem.
Conman isn’t powerful in any other deck, despite being able to be ran in several decks.
Conman is completely fair in all those decks.
Conman is only as good as the last card you played.
Ask yourself why Conman isn’t a problem when playing it to activate Orb.
Because it’s fair to play Conman after a 10 mana orb.
What’s not fair is playing Conman on turn 5 to play a 10 mana spell, right?
But that can’t happen if a 10 mana spell isn’t played on turn 4.
Complaining about Conman on 5 to play a Tsunami is like complaining about Tsunami on 4 and asking for a nerf to Tsunami instead of Skyla.
You’ve brought nothing of substance into the debate and all you’ve done is throw your hands in the air hurling expletives about a card and no valid arguments against the arguments against yours.
I can’t say for sure because I’m not a statistician nor do I have access to all the websites with all the stats. I can only say that I’ve been seeing a lot of DK and Paladin in gold ranks which are difficult for my deck to beat.
The greed of warrior is way too much and I just auto concede because I don’t have the patience to wait that long to lose.
They play pattern of going big spell into conman immediately afterwards is the frustrating issue with the deck
Bumping skyla up 1 mana does slow it down, but the deck can generate up to 8 coins
Even if they just nerfed skyla the issue of conman following up the big spell immediately still exists as a frustrating play pattern.
Conman is not problematic in rogue because it works the way it should work in Rogue
It is great in palidan but that deck is far less popular
All i am saying is conman is problematic when it repeats cards you play already in your deck and it is used to copy something that is consistently powerful
It should only work on randomly generated cards, when the effect is as consistent as it is in mage, it is too powerful
King Tide is a little bit of a different beast as when you play him you signal the big turn, which also makes it more disruptable. A turn 4 king tide is entirely disabled by a neophyte. You can’t negate Skyla like that, only delay her (which is a shot in the dark in the first place).
It also massively increased the likelihood of a turn 5 tsunami with the new possibility of it happening on 4, and made under the sea better (even though I still think it’s a trap).
Frequency is the father of complaints in hearthstone. Fairly rare events (it had basically no play rate, and the king tide perfect turn was rare within it) don’t get a lot of community hate. It was also a tier 4 level deck, so the complaints that might have showed up would have been shot down with “lol you are complaining about a tier 4 deck.”
The turn 5 tsunami was still back breaking before the mini set. Both Schyla and I were successfully running BSM in the weeks leading up to the mini set. Making that more consistent was a mistake. Conman is not that much more egregious than Tidepool Pupil was with cycling the big spells repeatedly, and the times where he is obscene are only when king tide or Skyla accelerated tsunami/sunset volley too much.
Even with all this, big spell mage is failing to actually dominate the meta in anything but play rate. It creates an understandably frustrating experience, but win rate wise? It’s nothing particularly special now that the play rates of the old good decks are recovering.
The reason i find conman so annoying in the deck isnt the overall winrate.
Its the winrate the deck has in scenarios where between turns 4-6 a big spell is played and then repeated. These are the brute force wins i was referring to that happen only because conman was able to immediately repeat your spell and there just isn’t anything the opponent can really do to reasonably respond to it.
I dont like it when any deck relies on incredibly busted plays to win, but without them it is just an average deck. These situations are frustrating and more and more frequent with how hard some cards swing games.
Conman is only as powerful as the tools around it sure, but it should not function like it currently does in mage and palidan because it creates these scenarios where even if you respond to the power play, it just repeats it the next turn.
In rogue you have to work a lot harder to get value off of it. I would consider replaying a 2/3 with poisonous with conman a decent play in rogue xD. You have to spend mana amd find something decent to set it up in rogue before you can effectively use it
The difference in its power level between how it works in rogue compared to how fast and consistently you can make it pay off in mage or pali is not reasonable.
You can go to HSGuru right now and look at the mulligan and drawn winrate stats for the cards in Big Spell Mage right now. You can filter for any rank you like. Here’s what you’re going to find:
Skyla is ALWAYS the best card in the deck.
Surfalopod is ALWAYS the second best card in the deck.
King Tide is basically the third best card in the deck, being top 5 in both mulligan and drawn winrate. Another card might grab 3rd place in one but King Tide is 3rd best overall.
Conman literally isn’t a problem card even right now. It’s a good and playable card, and because of Skyla, Surfalopod and King Tide it is currently a very popular card. But Conman is basically in the same power tier as all the other cards that BSM runs, not somehow above them.
https://www.hsguru.com/card-stats?archetype=Big+Spell+Mage
That data says that your Conman alarmism is objectively false.
Bruh another low power set existed too. Anyone remember Dustwood? Aside from Genn and Baku it was considered a low power trash set. People don’t want weak sets simple as that. Same way people whine about no good counter play then whine about it when we get it. The playerbase and Team 5 deserve eachother lol.
The entire deck got a turn faster. Used to be consistently turn 6 (Surfalopod into Under the Sea or Watercolor), maybe turn 5 if you drew the right Legendary. With Metal Detector, it’s consistently Turn 5, maybe turn 4 if you draw the right Legendary.