Discover is fine when the resulting cards aren’t too broad, specifically keeping it within your own class, or neutral, and with certain parameters. Discover an elemental, discover a spell, discover an X mana card, these are fine, as the resulting choices are at least somewhat predictable and likely to be relevant to your game plan.
The problem comes when the parameters get larger, or when it crosses over to other classes. Zephyrs is an obvious callout on this. You can generally get an idea if the opponent is running a highlander deck or not, and thus can predict they have Zephyrs in their deck, but beyond that all bets are off, as now you have to play around the possibility of your opponent having all sorts of possible cards like Twisting Nether, Fireball, Bloodlust, Tyrion Fordring, Windfury, Mass Dispel, and so on.
Though, on the flipside, sometimes discover is on the opposite end of the spectrum, so specific that it becomes an issue. Stuff like Master’s Call and Shadow Vision were so specific that they were pretty easy to exploit for good stuff. Not to mention Stonehill Defender in Paladin nearly always nabbing either an extra Tyrion or Sunkeeper Tarim, due to the lack of paladin taunt cards at the time.
That’s my biggest bugbear with discover. It’s really hard to play around, especially when you have large amounts of card generation.
I’ve been in several games where opponents have won almost entirely due to a lucky discover or similar, which you can’t do much about (apart ftom ‘Go Face!’). On a personal note, it sucks enjoyment out of the game to lose like that on a regular basis.
I guess it really comes down to what you want to play with. Because I for example would find that (Discover/RNG/etc.) very exciting. But on the other hand if someone makes a certain deck that abuses this or that thing it’s like… why even try? I just want to have fun.
For example Bloodlust and Savage Roar. Once I don’t clear the board enough (or have Taunts up) it’s game over. Or Divine Spirit with Inner Fire. Once I can’t deal with a high health minion (or don’t have a Taunt up) it’s game over. Mecha’thun. Once they’ve drawn out their deck and I couldn’t screw them over it’s game over.
I’m not saying these are bad and shouldn’t exist, but with people like me that just want to have fun those can get really annoying. Especially since you will know in the end that you didn’t even stand a chance.
With RNG/Discover on the other hand though that isn’t necessarily the case. What if you get one of those cards and you try to make it work. Like trying to build a big board with Bloodlust or Savage Roar, make a high health minion stick with Divine Spirit and Inner Fire, or have Mecha’thun as your last resort and all that without your deck spcifically build around that. I would find that much more exciting than “autolosing/-winning” against this or that.
Therefore, in my opinion, RNG is great and Disover is the best thing ever added to the game. There should be much, much more of it. It would make games more enjoyable for me.
Unfortunately I can see it’s the exact opposite for you. And that’s why there isn’t that much around. I just wanted to say that there are people like me which are exactly on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to how Discover brings or takes enjoyment from them.
You shouldn’t have to play around Bloodlust/Savage Roar when your not playing against Druid/Shaman. You should have to play around DIvine Spirit + Inner Fire when its not a Priest. That’s my point. You shouldn’i have to play around stuff that just not normally available in a class. What’s the point of classes if everyone does everything and they can only do it with class cards that are not in their own class. Like oh im safe its only a paladin he used all his dude buffs oops wrong he generated a Bloodlust from BS that wasn’t Zephrys.
Except that it isn’t because Discover can’t offer you cards from other classes, unless the card text says otherwise. Rogue is the only class that can consistently Discover cards from other classes. Priest can Discover or just generate cards from your opponent’s deck or hand. But as we’ve seen, ‘stealing’ cards from your opponent has been bad for Priest. Doesn’t have nearly as good support for that game plan as Rogue does.
Uh huh. And what card did that Paladin use to get that Bloodlust? Because outside of Zephrys I can’t think of a way for Paladin to get Bloodlust.
Well, there is ONE card that can generate random Shaman spells for Paladin (and other classes) but I want to hear it from you.
Just like others said Discover almost exclusively gives you neutral or cards from your class. One exception are for example the three tri-class Discover cards from Gadgetzan. 99% of Discover cards just pull from neutral or your class though. So I’m not sure what exactly you mean there.
And to be honest I would actually enjoy more stuff like the mixing of different classes. For example Witch’s Cauldron is one of my favorite cards. But of course I understand that some people like you don’t enjoy it that much for various reasons.
The best would be they make all sorts of cool cards and then give people a way to play how they want. For example if you don’t like Discover and every class should stick to their thing you make such a rule set. For even crazier Discover/RNG or mixing classes or who knows what it’s a different rule set. And then everyone looks for the “game table” they want to play on:
You can play around Priest steals because you know what in your own deck. You can’t play around random BS that somehow comes from another class. Rogue you can accept that the sometime will get that random BS but not if its one of the other 9 classes.
For Paladin. Tanglefur Mystic into Tortalin Forager into Lotus Agent is one way to get Bloodlust.
But you don’t know what Priest got until they play the card so no. You can’t. Not that it matters cos no Priest plans their game plan on stealing cards from their opponent that could be utterly useless to them. So a moot point.
Sooo… It’s okay when Rogue happens to get some game winning random “BS” but not other classes? Okay.
…
Pfft BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
First; that includes Wild cards. I thought we were talking about Standard. Secondly; that is such an unlikely highroll that required THREE cards to get Bloodlust randomly that I would not even be mad if I lost to something like that. And thirdly; neither Tanglefur Mystic or Tortollan Forager have Discover effect, so the ‘culprit’ here wasn’t even that specific keyword. And Lotus Agent gave you the option of other class cards (Rogue, Druid and Shaman) simply because it says so in its text.
Also, why play those three when you can just play Witch’s Cauldron and hope you get the Shaman spell you need? That was the card I was thinking of that could generate Bloodlust. And even that is rotating out.
I don’t know if you actually lost to that highroll. But if you did; deal with it. It’s not like anyone can plan to such a strategy.
Sure you don’t know the exact cards Priest stole but you know what they didn’t get. You can easily factor in any possible cards they might have stolen into your calculations. Like if your Mage and have 2 copies of Flamestrike in your hand you know that Priest couldn’t possibly have stolen a Flamestrike because they aren’t in your deck anymore so you don’t have to play around a random Flamestike for example. Its not moot you know what is still in your deck if you are paying attention and you know they won’t have something that isn’t in your deck.
Its not really fine with Rogue but Blizzard decided a part of Rogue’s identity is wild card. So you just have to take it from Rogue. They should just delete that from class identity.
You just mention How Paladin can get a Bloodlust without Zephrys. I named one immediately off the top of my head. There are probably even easier ways for it to happen. You said it was Impossible. Blizzard made anything possible with the way they make Random Generation and that the issue. Any Class can get anything and that’s not alright.
Then they should also make more Hero Cards and make it so that the Hero Cards change your into other Heroes kind of like Renounce Darkness but with Discover like Elysiana but make is so the Discover is only class cards. Yeah that would be good awesome. Make it a Nuetral Hero Card that first lets you Discover a Class and then Discover 2 copies of 10 Class Cards of that class. Make it cost 0 because it doesn’t do anything except change your class and deck and if you use it too early you fatigue faster. Yeah that would be awesome right.
That’s cute. But it’s still a moot point since no Priest steals cards from their opponent hoping to win the game with them, so I don’t even need to think about that. Why run bad cards copying random, potentially useless, cards from your opponent when you can play something that is actually playable and even advance your game plan?
Wait, it IS fine for Rogues or ISN’T? Make up your mind already.
If that’s Tess Greymane you’re referring to, Rogue still got fair amount of support for using cards from other classes. The Quest and Shadowjeweler Hanar especially and all the other cards that generate cards from other classes.
You know what your problem is? You look at the class ‘identity’ guidelines, note the word GUIDELINES, as if they were rules set in stone by god that are absolute laws. Look at them as what they truly are, guidelines, and you’re better off.
Nope. I didn’t. Stop lying. I even said I knew one card that could generate Bloodlust for Paladin.
I guess theoretically any class can randomly get anything if they really tried. Like minions, or spells from another class (by using godawful Lorewalker Cho or Nexus-Champion Saraad in Wild) but it’s pretty hard to do. And what’s even harder is to get any good spells that are any use to you. And that I think is fine.
Outside of Rogue you don’t see classes running rampant casting (useful) spells outside of their class like it was nothing. So, you once lost to this one Paladin that somehow managed to get Bloodlust? Well, too bad. Crap happens. Especially in a game like Hearthstone for better or worse.
And at the end of the day; it’s the very consistent decks with little random card regeneration that have the best performance and become meta decks. Not decks like current Quest Rogue that rely on generation of cards outside of their class. So no. It is not a widespread ‘issue’ that needs to be addressed.
My only problem with discover is when you are able to get cards from other classes than yours and your opponent’s class.It kills the “skill” required to get good in this game.I really cant play arond every card in the game when i make my move.I’ve faced many times rogues surviving with multiple twisting nethers and other bs stuff
You could. You should’ve said (or maybe you meant that) “You shouldn’t need to play around every single card in the game”. Now that… is your opinion. Mine is… different. But I also don’t care about “skill”, “winning”, etc. I just like to play the game and have fun trying to do my best. If there’s a chance that they might have this or that certain thing you might want to play around that and sometimes there’s not much you can do about it. As long as you also could stand a chance or that certain strategy is not downright OP/broken etc. it’s fine in my opinion. But yes, I can see how some people think it shouldn’t be this way. For this reason I wish there would be a way to play with custom rules. I love RNG/Discover and mixing up everything. Others don’t, hate it even. Would be no problem with custom game settings. But alas, it shall not be… for now.
No, you cant play around every card, that literally makes no sense.Do i not develop a board against a rogue just because he might have twisting nether or the amazing reno or something?If you think it like this you might not play any cards whatsoever because it might help your opponent cause every card gets countered by another card if you think about it.And discover is fine, the problem is when you get your hands on cards from every class.I understand rogue has to have this kind of gimmick, but make it so you can steal from your opponent’s class, so i might stand a chance.Right now playing against a rogue its literally a lottery based on what cares they get.You just push as much damage and pray they dont get the cards they need, which might be ok for a game purely for fun, but toxic for an e-sports game
