Twinspell mage full board of 8 cost minions turn 4?

I have to disagree on that.

A deck designed around hard to counter power plays is OK. If it was so easy to counter it wouldn’t be a power play in the first place!

People want to remember every time the Mage high rolled and forget every time they succumbed to pressure.

The only new card (so far) that works with the deck is the Quest, and they would sacrifice early Giants/CC to run it. There will be more competition in the Uldum meta, particularly if Control Shaman with Plague is strong enough. Which coincidentally is a counter.

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The problem is 100% Conjurer’s Calling. It’s way too cheap, versatile, and a twin-spell.

It is 100% the problem.

That’s not exactly true. Power plays are still power plays if they have counter play. Did Cubelock not have power plays because it was vulnerable to weapon destruction, silence, transformation effects, and Geist? Strong decks should have counter play outside of just kill them quickly.

Even when there was no 12 mana cost minions whom you could cheat out way earlier around turn 4? Yeah. Sure.

But hey, by all means. Enjoy being wrong. :slight_smile:

You have it backwards.

The problem with Cubelock was that it fought aggression too easily, and warped the meta too much around having tech against it. Control decks were still getting trounced by it even when they used all that tech.

Additionally, fairness isn’t revolved around a control deck beating any and all decks.

When I say counter play, I don’t mean it outright flips matches from unfavorable to favorable, but from terrible to acceptably bad.

Cubelock was actually pretty vulnerable to aggressive decks. It wrecked token decks, but it got wrecked by zoo and tempo mage, and it was more vulnerable to weapon destruction (Skull of Manari into Ooze is literally 5 mana do nothing) and transformation effects than you’re claiming. Tech cards are far less effective against Cyclone Mage than they were against Cubelock.

Plus, it doesn’t help that Vanish and Naturalize are gone.

I don’t mean to say that whenever you got all those tech cards off in one specific game against a Cube Warlock deck while playing a control deck you didn’t win more matches.

I will say that those tools available to WW control are comparable to having on hand Brawl into a Khadgar CC board, along a Supercollider for next turn Giants CC turn and BGH for an individual Sea Giant the following turn.

The interesting part is that you have to caviat Cube Warlock’s win rate against aggressive decks, whereas no such caviats exist for Cyclone Mage (BTW Heal Zoo was not a thing pre nerf WW, so it’s not correct to discuss that matchup if the purpose of the discussion is related to nerfs).

Rogue and Druid VS Mage, why are you lamenting about lack of tech when they are doing fine without it? Are you upset they don’t have a 100% win rate against Mage?

Warrior is the one class that can tech against Mage (and really only because they have access to a broken hero card that should not be balanced around). (Edit: I forgot that Hunter can as well, with secrets and Nine Lives, but again that’s pretty dependent on another hero card that probably shouldn’t be in standard.)

I finished top 100 farming prenerf Cubelock with Zoolock (way before the Heal Zoo days, god I miss Darkshire Councilman), so my example was absolutely appropriate. My point was that Cubelock wasn’t that much better against aggro than Cyclone Mage. That’s all. People act like Cyclone Mage folds to any aggression. It’s actually fine (fine, not good) against aggro. What it struggles against is burst (Doomhammer Shaman).

It’s odd that we’re clearly talking about slower decks (or at least that’s what I’m trying to talk about) and you say that Druid is good against Cyclone Mage when the one slower deck they have (Heal Druid) is pretty much not viable because of Cyclone Mage.

And I only brought up Vanish because it was one of the few tools that existed in standard that allowed you to deal with a bunch of huge minions. Pogo Rogue is a deck that did ok against Cyclone Mage (was unfavored but not terribly so) until Vanish went away.

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Your Zoo experience is not reflective of the community as a whole. Sort of how Slysssa went to #2 as Murloc Shaman with a 75% WR against Warrior.

I was personally getting murdered by full meta Cubelocks while running a noob unoptimized Zoo Warlock at Ranks 15-20. I remember milling them with Mukla all the time. Too much PTSD, I never wanted to play Zoo Warlock after I finally got enough cards and dust for full meta decks.

The list I used was netdecked from a pro player and was the most popular version at the time (so it wasn’t like I was playing something totally off meta). It was absolutely very good against Cubelock. Stats showed it was. The only reason it wasn’t played more was because everyone and their mother was playing Raza and Cubelock.

Our problem isnt powercreep! It is how long if ever it takes team 5 to acknowledge and take action on problems. Is there a solution to this?

I mean how much have you invested into HS. Should the future of HS be dictated in the interest of only the company or in the players aswell? Because that is what we are sitting with here.

Sorry but.

Let’s be serious…

One card be allowed to counter a entire deck is bad design.

Counterplay? Sure
Easy counterplay? Nope

I’ve said this a few times now, but when I’m talking about counterplay, I don’t mean print an “I win” tech card that changes a match up from terrible to favorable. I simply mean there should be a way to tech to make a match up go from terrible to merely bad. When a deck is powerful and resistant to teching against (like Raza Priest), it’s problematic.