I agree. I was wrong and I’ll stop posting in this topic.
You think you are doing something by reacting this way? Say whatever you want, but if you keep patronizing me, I’ll just ignore you from now on.
I never talked about any other ramp than Druid ramp, so yes, you are wrong. You are making up fights. Doomkin is still Druid ramp.
You have 0 idea what you are talking about. Interaction is NOT solely determined by playing cards on your opponent’s turn. You are confusing disruption with interaction.
Until the release of Arena, MTG was not a major ESPORTs supported by WOTC despite the fact that MTG had nearly an uncontested monopoly for nearly a decade. What you are talking about is a community-sponsored scene which EVERY card game has. However, until 2018, MTG didn’t have an ESPORTs roster, sponsors, schedule, etc. like what Hearthstone and Pokémon currently has.
MTG is such a bad card game to play AND spectate that ever since Hearthstone’s release Hearthstone has consistently made profits dwarfing MTG, when you adjust for operating costs. More recently, MTG has experienced significant problems including MTG Arena doing so badly that they had to put the game on Steam just to get exposure.
From 2018-2022 (so a span of 4 years), MTG had 2 failed ESPORTS and 1 failed content creator program…WOTC literally wasted millions of dollars and STILL couldn’t get a functioning ESPORTs scene despite MTG being a very well-established title. Arena didn’t fail because it “looked bad”; that is flat out false, as one of the reasons why Arena initially did extremely well was because it looked very polished and ran well. The problem was that MTG is a high-variance, low-skill game where meta decks require very little thought to operate effectively, because there is next to no meaningful interaction. I want you to think about the most braindead warrior control/attrition meta, or degenerate Mage spell spamming meta, or the old-school degenerate face hunter meta, or any other deck where you could ignore the the board and win…since 2018 MTG has ALWAYS had at least one of these decks as T1 or T0.
In fact, MTGA lost most of its playerbase because of degenerate cards like Oko in eldraine, the embarrassment that was the Wilderness Reclamation deck, and stupid gimmicks like companions that made games incredibly 1-dimensional.
Hearthstone’s ESPORTS may not be as big as DOTA, but thats a dumb comparison since you are literally comparing MOBAs which have the biggest ESPORT scene and largest playerbase since those are team games. Hearthstone is the biggest ESPORT in card games, whose only competition is the Pokemon TCG.
The main reason why MTG has a playerbase stems more from money that can be made from the secondary market, but the speculation for card/set sales is dying down because of the terrible mismanagement of the game. The fact that cards games like Yu-Gi-Oh, Hearthstone, Legends of Runeterra, etc are successful despite being released AFTER MTG should be proof that MTG is nowhere near as good as people make it out to seem. Compare this to Lol and DOTA which came out nearly a decade ago and since then there haven’t been any other MOBA that can compete with these monoliths. Or how Street Fighter and TEKKEN are still the biggest ESPORTS fighting games despite fighting games having a renaissance of late. MTG is the intellectual property in gaming that I can think of that lost its market despite having a virtual monopoly at one point.
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They literally understand that. In any game, being able to do things on your turn is obvious.
You’re just making things up, saying they don’t know this.
Maybe Magic doesn’t need to be an Esport because it has an in-person scene? Literally the largest payout of any card game, and to this day pays out more than current HS.
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Id like to argue against this… MTG Arena is the only computer program that has ever nuked a computer I’ve owned… It literally rendered my old 9 year old computer inoperable (certain card animations caused my computer to just hard reboot – that dragon planeswalker always did it and one day it just never rebooted). Even on the computer I replaced it with MTGA would shoot my ram up to max until I managed to fix it with a full reinstall (any card with a sacrifice *** was the culprit). So I would say it may have ran well for some but for me its one of the most poorly programmed clients in computer history.
As far as your knock on the gameplay I fully agree. MTGA makes hearthstone look like chess.
When did this happen to your computer? I forgot when, but a couple of years ago MTG Arena got rid of most of its developers and since then the quality of the app plummeted, and I heard that there were many bugs, cheaters, abuses, and terrible PC optimization.
I stopped playing around 2021, and the game played fine on my gaming laptop with a 1070 graphics card.
That’s crazy. HS doesn’t make anything look like Chess. HS is so braindead, you say “HS makes it look like Tic-tac-toe,” but nothing looks like that. You literally can’t compare anything to HS.
MTG makes HS look like Tic-Tac-Toe. That’s the correct analogy. You have 30 cards to work with. You have such little choice. Can’t interact on your opponent’s turn, so can’t consider counters. Ratios of traps. No need. Cards are told to be in certain decks, and they are so overpowered these days. No reason to think much of other decks. You can’t do much about it. You just play the deck you have better. Other than that, what can you do? I don’t understand this at all. When I change up my deck, it is mostly to counter mana curves. Has little to do with actual cards, as I can’t counter them. They even banned Steamcleaner. What good counters are there?
When I play Magic or Yugioh, every card I change I consider the meta. When I play HS, I just think about how I can make my curve better.
It happened probably back in 2022… I had a really old computer and I read some troubleshooting things here and there and it probably related to my CPU as other people with the CPU (dont ask me what it was I dont remember) had the same hard reboot problems I did in other games as well.
Although theres no excuse for why my updated computer would have problems
I mean I guess we disagree on how brain dead each game is but I cant speak for their wild modes (which I imagine are 10x worse) but as far as MTGA standard just go play mono red going first and due to damage scaling most games are over on turn 3 with your opponent having nothing they can do.
Its not much better as any other deck and I wont get into a long spiel about the problems I have with the game (drawing your mana to me is a very bad game design choice) but I dont find it strategically interesting even compared to the very toddler design of hearthstone.
I have. And I’ve played other decks, and gotten to far higher ranks. I find mono-red to not be that good. Noobs just don’t know how to play against it. I first reached Legend with a Red/Black deck, no rush. Mono Red crushes noobs.
MTG doesn’t have an ESPORTs because the game is terrible to spectate and is so high-variance, that each year there would be a high turnover of players. BTW, the Hearthstone World Championship prize-pool is $350,000 which is more than MTG’s world championship which is $200,000.
The main reason why the real-life card game has a huge payout and fanbase is because most MTG players are hardcore addicts with extreme impulse control issues. You have to understand that WOTC pioneered the concept of power creep, meta/net deck, and intentionally releasing broken/degenerate cards just to appeal to addicts with a lot of money to spend.
The fact that MTG was unable to repeat the “success” of paper in Arena is proof that the core game is bad and does not do well with a general public who is not already a hardcore MTG addict. When MTG actually has to compete for a marketshare/audience who want fresh, fair, and enjoyable gameplay, MTG has consistently underperformed despite spending far more money in advertisements.
In fact, the only people who play Arena are those who were already hardcore MTG fans, but gave up paper to play Arena at a cheaper price. MTG has almost no newcomer presence, which means to expect the playerbase to plummet within the next 5-10 years when players are in their late 40s and no longer want to buy new sets.
MTG is far simpler than HS, because there is far fewer interaction in MTG coupled with the extreme variance caused by the mana system. Imo, MTG is simpler, easier, and far more degenerate than most other card games, hence why the game has next to no appeal to newcomers. Deck-building in MTG is also constraining because of the mana system, and in general the power level of cards strongly favor linear deck-builds.
Most games are decided by mana problems, hence why MTG is a game where curving out is almost always the best option. Meaningful interaction is non-existent because it is very easy for games to snowball due to mana constraints.
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Might be true, but conjecture.
Nothing is as high variance as a game created to have RNG (i.e. HS) So, terrible point.
MTG has paid out far more, and people are millionaires because of it. No RNG neeeded. And it has done this without being an esport. HS is dying faster than Magic. Just look at views.
People actually cared about MTG before the internet. Now anyone can get famous.
Wow, pure conjecture. HS would be no different. It’s pay to win.
Doesn’t mean anything.
No, that doesn’t prove it. It means MTG is more social and HS was designed to be anti-social.
Not true at all. I hit Legend being a hardcore Yugioh fan. I played Arena because HS was trash and Yugioh was stale.
None of this makes any sense, and goes against all logic.
Maybe true.
Not true at all. You build your deck to not have mana problems. People try to abuse it by having low mana and mulling. But if you play best of one, you can’t do that, a la, Arena. And when you are playing best of 3 or 5, you both have mana problems. Evens out.
Magic is far more random statistically speaking. This is because the game is dependent on mana to play cards. A typical deck is 60 cards, which consists of around 24 mana - this is the standard for an average deck. In general, you want to have 2 or 3 cards in your opening hand to curve our effectively. However, about 42% of your games you will have 0, 1, 4, 5, 6, or 7 mana which will greatly reduce your chances of curving out effectively. You can mulligan, but in MTG, you are penalized for mulliganning by having 1 fewer card. For this reason, the hardest part about deck-building in MTG is mana proportion, because games are usually decided by mana problems. In contrast, the core cards are so simple and linear that MTG usually has a solved metagame a week after a set’s release.
In HS, what is considered randomness rarely actually affects the outcome of games. The odds of losing due to a lucky Yogg or discover is FAR lower than losing in MTG because of mana problems. This is why anyone who complains about HS’s RNG but praises MTG is inept statistically. I will repeat again…MTG is one of the highest variance card games out there. This is because the “randomness” is in the mana draws, which is far more problematic than any random excavate, discover, or yogg nonsense in HS.
In fact, MTG is so high-variance that a player was banned for cheating, not because they had direct evidence of him stacking his deck or anything, but because his winrate was higher than the typical variance of a typical MTG player. Yes, MTG is so low-skill and high variance, that you can predict cheaters based on their high winrate. This is another reason why MTG ESPORTS will never work; the game is so high variance that the game would struggle to have regulars each year, and ESPORTS live and die based on the following of teams or individual players who make it to the world championships. Back in 2018-2022, WOTC literally had to give out invitationals to pros who did not qualify for worlds, and this was in order to enforce consistency in player turn-out at the highest competitive scene.
And stop the cap; there are no millionaires from playing any card game. The only millionaires in MTG are those who made a profit from selling overpriced cards on the secondary market. You cannot sustain any long-term salary playing card games competitively, and this applies to any card game.
You can’t build your deck to not have mana problems. You build your deck to mitigate mana problems. Given that netdecking is far more of a problem in MTG than HS, players are going to face the same high-variance in mana draws. We are talking about nearly half of your games being disadvantaged ONLY because of the mana distribution in your opening hand. There is a reason why topdecking is far more impactful in MTG than in any other card game, and this is because drawing a card that you have enough mana to play usually decides the game. This also makes spectating boring, because most games are decided by mana issues, and the games that don’t suffer from mana problems are usually decided by the inherent variance in “good” draws. It is very rare to see both players have close games, and even then there is little meaningful interaction fighting for board space, rather both players play solitaire until one person wins.
You’re only talking about randomness in top decking. HS has an RNG that no other game has, and relies on it: Discovery and generation. Nothing compares in terms of RNG to this. Nothing.
Total nonsense.
Has nothing to do with the above sentence. Even if it were true, it would not make
You clearly are an amateur at debate. Which is fine, but…I mean, I have a degree in this.
It can literally be 50/50 in either case. It depends on how lucky you are, and how mana locked you are. However, one depends on how poorly you designed your deck. Again, people try to abuse mana in tournaments by mullings. They aren’t making a good deck, overall. They are trying to abuse the system, as Yogg tried to abuse how many spells you played. Again, not a comparable point.
I’m sure there was other evidence. People were skeptical. Still, not good. But proves nothing about variance.
Your argument about variance makes zero sense to me. MTG is bad because it has variance, but is controlled, and HS is good because it has bland non-variance? I don’t understand your point.
That’s a lie. MTG has multi-champs who invested. Sure, not all of it was direct, but there money is all from MTG. This doesn’t even really matter. You were being a jerk because MTG esports failed. MTG is still strong in real life. That’s the point. You are acting like being an esport is better than being successful in reality. What a joke.
No kidding.
Show proof. What is your point?
Ah, my deck didn’t matter. 50% of the time I will just be mana locked because you said so. Got it.
You’re talking to a Yugioh player here. If Yugioh gets past turn 3, top decks literally decide the game.
Same for HS.
How? Having enough mana to play a card is boring?
This is literally because in a tournament setting people are taking advantage of the mulligan. It has nothing to do with Magic in general. I’ve explained this multiple times.
without turbo consistent ramp from both splish splash and Malf’s Gift, doomkin is fine imo.
People forget we saw Doomkin in another T1 deck in this expansion–Wheellock. It was not the issue there either, yet we had exclamations claiming that doomkin was “deleting the meta,” yet a 1 mana nerf to the actual problem card in that deck (and a bug fix) killed it
If you haven’t caught up, I’m talking about wheel lock which ran doomkin in the best of its’ decks.
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