S tier expansion. Good Job Blizzard!

Yeah…because every class playing Lamplighter for normal cost + paying normal cost for the bounce is COMPLETELY the same as playing Lamplighter for 2 less while bouncing for 0 and then playing more bounce that makes it cost 1. :rofl: Gimme a break. You’re wrong, and anyone else playing this game seriously knows you’re wrong, that’s why everyone is calling and predicting for that specific nerf and it’s specifically because of Rogue.

I’ll take the whine to celebrate since I’m correct here and you’re not.

You can have the cheese for the loss.

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Idk about that tbh… lamplighter rogue isn’t even the best elemental deck. Elemental mage is just better. The reason being that elemental rogue has pretty much zero aoe and board control unless they slot in tar and fan of knives (which they’re starting to do, hurting themselves in the process). Elemental rogue fumbles quite hard in the aggro matchups, whereas the other elemental decks, which have a much easier time dealing with opponent boards, don’t.

As is, elemental rogue is not the best elemental deck, not the best tempo deck and not the best combo/otk deck. So, annoying as it might be to certain archetypes, lamplighter rogue isn’t that bad. Lamplighter is just too good, shadowstep or no shadowstep. It is the highest played WR in elemental mage by far, second highest drawn WR and it’s even 4th best mulligan WR even though it’s a late game finisher. On top of that, elemental rogue has a much higher skill ceiling, so it only really becomes the superior elemental deck in top legend.

Rogue is doing extremely poorly anyways and Lamplighter is surely getting a nerf on top, making rogue almost unplayable. Shadowstep ain’t the problem with it.

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It’s Lamplighter Rogue that is causing all the complaints about Lamplighter all over Reddit and Twitter. If you look at the stats, Lamplighter comes down a turn before Mage or Shaman play it, and it comes down with a much higher played win rate. It’s Rogue abusing the heck out of it and it’s because of Breakdance and Shadow step. Rogue isn’t suddenly running Bounce Around because it’s suddenly good. It’s running it because of this specific card.

It might not be “the best elemental” deck, but it’s the most “feels bad” way to lose similar to how Mozaki Mage used to work.

Again, Mage and Shaman have class Elementals that make them good. Rogue has zero. So a class that has zero Elementals is doing nearly as good as the 2 classes that have huge Elemental support. That’s how broken it is in Rogue with its use.

It’s getting nerfed specifically because of Rogue. I’d be shocked if it doesn’t.

This is one of those decks that get nerfed because of how uninteractive it is (again, see Mozaki Mage).

Yes, once it gets nerfed, Rogue is going back to playing Excavate Rogue that currently can’t see much play because of stuff like Combo Druid and all the aggro stuff out there. That’s a whole 'nother issue.

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Agreed. It’s not even very fun to play anyway and I tend to love combo decks in general and rogue combo decks in particular. It’s just not what I want to do as a rogue so I don’t care for it. I am just arguing against the common shadowstep hate. SS is only ever as good as its targets.

But that’s the point, Lamplighter has single-handedly taken all elemental decks from meme tier to competitive and even tier 1-2. That’s how good this card is. So good in fact that rogue can simply take it for a spin with almost zero elemental support relying entirely on it for a kill. That says more about how strong the card is than about shadowstep, although yes, shadowstep allows rogue to do rogue things. Again, shadowstep is only as good as its targets are. Don’t hurt my beautiful lil boy lest they ever take it away from me :pleading_face:

All that said, I do agree Lamplighter will eat a fat nerf, and well deserved. I am hoping for a heavy nerf to it and buffs to both mage and rogue to compensate. I imagine both classes would rather be doing something else than playing this card tbh.

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This is also what I am hoping for.

Nerf Lamplighter, and then make sure to nerf Combo Druid, Taunt Warrior and quite possibly Pirate Shaman and Pirate DH. This way, Rogue and Mage aren’t dead in the water from the Lamplighter nerf. Shaman has several options it can still play so it doesn’t need help.

I doubt we see any buffs although they would be welcome. I don’t think BSM needs a buff, it can be dangerous if it is just allowed to breathe through other nerfs. All those Mid Range - Semi-late game decks just can’t exist right now aside from Taunt Warrior.

I can’t comment on any possible Paladin nerfs despite it showing it’s the top deck/class because I haven’t ran into a single one yet.

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I dont think you understand how this game works, but thats fine, not everyone can connect the dots.
Here’s a little insight … 1st step is creating powercreeping cards, (i.e. unkilliax ) , and because Blizzard can’t rely only upon artificially adjusting win rates from AI, they need some counter balance to the powercreeping through something that kills the afore mentioned power decks.
Lamplighter is a natural counterdeck to unkilliax, which makes the win rate balancing much easier ( You cant balance something if you dont have a counter to it ). Rogue is the best counter atm, due to the sheer manipulation of draws / mulligan by AI.
Personally i like playing HL druid, and i’ve met 3 lamp lighter Rogues in 50 games and 2 failed horribly, 3rd one killed me on turn 6. The deck is pretty much the same thing like old Van Cleef, 12/12 on turn 2 or 20/20 on turn 3.
Nothing changed since 2016 yet people still complain about things that dont even matter.
As for the you’re wrong i’m right, might wanna stop dealing with absolutes, there are only gray areas when it comes to humans.

Yeah so did I again, apparently you can’t speak on a forum…

You must not play ranked…

extremely glad I didn’t put any money down on this.

I think if you objectively look at this expansion it gets a D.

The good are the neutrals. So many neutrals this expansion have wide usage… from the pirate neutrals to lamplighter (its rogue mana cheat mechanics that ruin it, not lamplighter itself) and the legendarys in incindius, the dragon cheese thing and griftah. THey did a really good job designing the neutrals

The neutral is the tourist cards. The tourist cards are really masking (or in some case showcasing) how downright awful a lot of this set has been. THe actual warrior set itself is dreadful… only being saved by the fact that warrior is using druid cards. Same can be said for other classes… shaman has DH cards (and a decent pirate neutral package)… druid has mage cards and so forth

The bad is the classes that got hit hard with awful tourist pairings… see hunter the worst set in the game paired with an equally dreadful warrior set. Priest had a bad set paired with the worst set in the game in hunter and both classes are suffering mightily for it.

If it werent for the tourist cards so many classes would be resorting to playing the same decks they have been for months (some classes still are). The tourist mechanic masking how bad the actual class sets have been is the only thing saving the expansion from an F in my opinion.

Which brings up the question should the tourist mechanic continue… On one hand it allows classes with bad sets a chance to have a new deck because of another classes good set… on the other hand classes with really bad sets (hunter) are in the hole for a long time and if a class ends up getting 2 good sets well it’ll be mirror match after mirror match. With that said I think they should continue the tourist mechanic due to the ability to mask bad sets and at least give the opportunity for extra variety where a solo misfired set would offer none.

The expansion not bad but just few cards need to be balance a little to slow down the meta down just a bit bring more. The meta just a little to fast path at moment with all otk and kill from hand decks so you ether play aggressive or lose.

Kibler say same talking here in this video in more detail and hope blizzard take his advice.
https://youtu.be/Afam4SYPsUg?si=iM4mhMzTs9BpiDt-

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With all respect.

He usually has good takes but that one in specific isn’t that good.
If you slow down the game we gonna have to start witch hunting combos again and it will spiral out of Control.

As it is we have the “good enough” and any try to get better will factually get things worse.

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You replied to this within 10 minutes and the video is near 20 minutes long and Kibler just released it… Did you watch it all? Seems like you didn’t and just made a quick response based on what the poster said.

I’m watching it now and commenting as I am watching.

He’s 100% spot on in regards to the meta. There are no mega power outliers. That’s true. Nothing is just destroying everything else.

BUT, it’s “less fun” than it should be because we’re in a state that causes people to just shut their game off because they lost in frustrating ways. That’s to say, the aggro and the endless Taunt Warrior stuff. He’s 100% right here. Ultra frustrating play pattern. Summon Zilliax. Summon Zilliax. Summon Zilliax. Summon Zilliax. Summon Zilliax. Summon Zilliax. Summon Zilliax. Summon Zilliax. It sucks to play against all while not being too powerful. The sucks to play against is the problem.

His suggestion is to nerf the card that summons Zilliax to summon DIFFERENT minions.
100% spot on. This is also my suggestions. This is how most resurrections works. He also mentions Inventor Boom getting that change as well.

Another play style deck is 1 turn kill decks. Lamplighter Rogue and Combo Druid. Lamplighter is the problem.

The issue is prominence of 1 turn kill decks, aggro decks and Unkilliax pushing all other decks out of the meta. They are ok to exist, but not exist in the abundance they are now.

Another spot on assessment. I’ve been saying this exact same thing. When too many OTK decks exist, you get the feeling of losing as if there was nothing you could have done to win.

Concierge problem is that it should work with stuff that you don’t automatically put in your deck. It should be with stuff outside your deck like Burgle Rogue. He wants it to go to Not Less Than (1).

Another perfect take. He’s been absolutely spot on so far.

Lamplighter is fine in Elemental Mage and Elemental Shaman. The problem is what Rogue is doing.

100% another perfect take. He’s spot on.

He wants it to be 5 mana 5/5. This is the only disagreement I have so far but his nerf suggestion isn’t terrible. It makes sense. He just doesn’t want the card to be doubled up with bounce. You get the double effect if you have both.

The aggro pirates are too good to the point a lot of other decks simply cannot react fast enough. Mid Range decks can’t deal with it.

Again, 100% spot on here.

His change suggestion is nerf the Zilliax in aggro to stop buffing boards because you are playing minions to counter minions and that just helps the aggro deck buff their board.

I didn’t think of that change, but that makes sense as well. You shouldn’t be punished by aggro by playing to the board to counter the aggro. It is a problem for sure.

Everyone says counter aggro with board presence, but Zilliax punishes you for that.

So…not sure what YOU watched, if you even watched it at all, but he’s not wrong at all. And I bet most of the things he mentions get nerfed for many of those reasons.

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by all means…

Winrates are similar because algorithm designed to keep people at certain winrate.

Slowly grinding way to highest rank.

standard is a mess.

brown nosing at its finest.

p.s. tried to report this topic and can not, looks like mods already restored this brown nosing topic multiple times. rofl.

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Really don’t find the actual frustrating ways any less frustrating than the older frustrating ways and this is why i disagree.

When you have an ever changing application (including games) the “good” is better than the optimal state.

Let’s say we do all of that and for a miracle It don’t Go to hell with the game balance in the process(It Will).
Congratulations you still have another release after that now will be impacted.

Sorry but not wanting to have a good metagame threw by the window because some people don’t like How the game ended is just good sense unless we have a mass uninstall wave that i sincerely doubt because most here accepted far worse stuff.

We had that with dragon druid being favored by not needed nerfs and Will have that again. Because people didn’t know when to shut up with things are in a good state.

And if we are really talking about that…
There is a deck that not only does OTKs from hand but run far better cards overall.
Do we gonna just delete southsea deckhand too or paladin players get a pass?

I think other than Zilliax, probably spell power druid and lamplighter rogue, the meta’s pretty good.

There’s a few too many OTKs and still too much damage from hand otherwise but I don’t think they can fix that with a couple of small changes.

This is my fear for rogue is that we have to go back to excavate rogue after the nerf cause rogue got garbage this expansion yet again. Like they need to seriously buff rogues carfs this expansion after they nerf lamplighter. Same thing goes for mage as well

It’s such a silly argument.

“Why do some crazy people want to ruin the good meta?” Well, obviously those people disagree that meta is good.

And all the other arguments are silly too.

“Why, you guys want to delete Lamplighter yet you were fine with Druid?” Who was? You are arguing with a strawman. Most people on the forums wanted Druid nerfed, the disagreement was about which card was the problem

“Waaaa, you guys are fine with Paladin”. Some people are but there are multiple threads asking to nerf Paladin. Have you got selective blindness?

I agree with some of what he say but there’s a few i disagree with.

First and most importantly it is ABSOLUTELY Zilliax that is the problem. Those resurrect cards are fine in a world where you cannot keep bringing back zilliax with all the buffs. I am still confused why it’s not a BC effect like One Amalgam Band. I mean we know it’s possible to make Zilliax like that and fix the problem. So the question has to be asked. Why aren’t they doing it to fix the card. They either don’t think it’s a big problem in which case this is how they want the meta to be. Outside of that i cannot really fathom why they think that card is balanced in any form at this point after printing cards to support it. The minion counting module should have always been your minions not theirs. that i agree with being changed but it should have always been like that.

The other change is based on the Lamplighter. If they go with the nerf to 4 that actually hurts the rogues quite a bit since they can no longer abuse it with Water Dancer. I disagree with making it cost odd cost because that just leaves in the Dancer combo as well.

Paladin has 1%-1.8% higher win rate than any other class right now lol. I have no issue playing against them.

I think it just shows how much of the comunity caves under the pressure that deck can put on the oposing player. Flood paladin that is.

Prob is whenever blizzard nerfs anything they destroy the meta completely in my experance. Along with taking the fun out of the game.

For me the game speed seems perfectly fine. Most my games last 10-16 turns.

Do you know the expression “you cant have you cake and eat it too”?

I think this expression is what we should go by.

Honestly the game has not been this good in years. Ifact i quit Hearthstone for a while because it was so slow and boring. Nothing fun and creative was going om and it fele like solitare. This meta changed the solitare issue.

Rainbow DK,priest, mage, and rouge are what im currently playing and im having a blast.

I messed with warrior and its so boring and solitare like it makes my brain blead. Its nkt interactive one bit. Played druidid quite a bit but its borring simular to warrior as well. I do not think druid really needs a nerf. Play around 20-25 games on the new deck and you will agree with me.

Odin and zillax on warrior and druid are the issue.

Thing is if you nerf zillax then you could possibly be nerfing priest to the ground.

Just leave everything alone except maybe warrior. The Card that gives you attack when you get armor but that alone could break everything.

Yeah im down with a fix like that, it would not break the meta.

Soon as you hit legend, paladins win rate is in line with the rest of the classes. This is showing there is nothing wrong with paladin. Its simply a get good issue.

IN CLOSING
I think the comunity does not realize how hard it is actually to balance this game. Is extreamly delicate. Just changing one thing, when the balance is this good, effects the win rates of the majority every class and deck. The fact that we even got here is nothing short of a miracle.

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