Nerf demons in battlegrounds!

Community Discussion
1

Game in and game out it’s annoying seeing nothing but demons. Everyone is running demon build because of the ridiculously high synergy the cards have across tiers. It’s ruining battlegrounds.

I suck with card names…but maybe being able to drop a 2/4 for 1 star against a -2 health penalty isn’t appropriate…either make the health penalty greater or put it into the 2 star.

Next topic of complaint is the 1 star 1/1 that gains 2/2 with each demon you play. Again. Either increase the damage dealt to the hero or more appropriately increase it to a 3 star.

Next, decrease the ridiculously high amount of demons shown in the pool… especially if you aren’t going to make the previous suggested changes. I’m having a harder time finding mechs and beasts now versus all the damned murlocs and demons!

Can we also add dragons in?

7 Likes
2

Honestly I see just as many mech decks and a smattering of murloc/beast decks. Demons only work in some situations and need several cards to work properly, while mech has it easier with just needing cobalts and random spawn mech deathrattles to go with it.

I’d argue murloc needs a slight buff, they’re the only ones really struggling. Beast is hard to get going but nigh impossible to beat when they do. Demon and mech are fine.

Caveat: I’m only in the 6000’s for ranking, no idea what the upper tiers are looking like.

3

Wow absolutely 0 knowledge on BG shown here.

  1. Homoculous is so bad even demon player hesitate to pick it. Its a I lose first fight and win next 2 but still can lose if meet yogg or curator. Bad tier 1 unit and absolutely no place in tier 2.

  2. Wraith weaver is good but it’s the worst Stat minion on base form. This mean picking it generally means losing first 2 fight. That’s 4 to 5 damage on average. For a minion that damage you, it reduce your health pool to do so. Also, it’s best synergy is with drum roll… A tier 3 minion so yea it can stay at tier 1.

  3. There is the 2nd least demon in the pool ( least being murlocs) , let’s count, voidlord, void caller, the 2/4 buff, homoculous, malganis, battlemaster, imp gang boss and floating watcher, that’s 9 demon. In a pool of 80 over minions.

And guess what 1 poison and the big guy is dead, 1 bad fight and the demon player is dead. Is demon strong? Yes but it’s definitely no where near game breaking. I lose to this demon guy all my fight until final 2 and buy 2 maexnna, wipe him clean.

2 Likes
4

I think murloc is fine. Their end game is too strong to risk buffing. The last time they buff primafin and coldlight seer, it become murloc battleground. Anything can be top 4, but only one winner, the murloc guy.

1 Like
5

I think it’s more the case they need to buff the other stuff… mostly everything else has little to no synergy other then murlocs and mek… so many hero powers are somewhat useless

6

I actually suggest bringing other poison minions into the game, maybe not a minion that gives poison to another friendly but just a normal poison beast so that murlocs are not the only ones with access to poison… but making it a rare thing… also bring king mukala back so we can have a good beast tribe… but then again I don’t play so often so I wouldn’t know…
Actually tried it out today… it seems most hero’s are trash… so yeah some classes and tribes need more buffs

7

It’s pretty much demons and mechs winning most of the game at my MMR (3000+).

8

Null,

I agree with your general stance to the OP, but I think you are portraying things in a slightly warped way.

The 2/4 on turn one, guarantees 2 wins, so for 2 health, as you point out under point 2, you protect 5 points of damage. You are unlikely to lose even against Curator or Yogg, unless they also picked up the 2/4 minion.

To Wraith Weaver, that is not how you play Wraith Weaver, you stay at Tier 1, pick up a voidwalker/homunculus and have two minions with stats that outpower ANYONE that levelled, thus not taking any damage at all in the second fight. The maximum damage you take is in Round 1, which is 3, no matter who you fight.

Whilst there is a pool of 80 minions, not all minions are equal.

Each rank has a different number of minions, according to the websites I have seen. At rank 1, there are more of each minion than those of Rank 2, and of Rank 3 etc.

The list I have seen is:

  • Tier 1: 18 copies
  • Tier 2: 15 copies
  • Tier 3: 13 copies
  • Tier 4: 11 copies
  • Tier 5: 9 copies
  • Tier 6: 6 copies

I accidentally posted this before I was finished, so might have to post again if the edit doesn’t allow me to make significant changes.

At Rank 3, there are more Demons then there are Murlocs, there is 1 murloc at Rank 3, which means there are 13 copies of that minion, if the list is correct.

Once you get to Rank 4/5 Murloc gain the advantage again, but look at the list, there is a smaller pool of those cards in any event and you have to have survived against massive demons much earlier.

You also fail to factor in how easy it is to Triple Demons from Rank 1; there are 18 copies of Voidwalker and Wraithweaver in Tier 1, at a time when most people pop to TIer 2. If you can get a couple of these each, set up the triples on board, level, triple and see if you can discover the Tier 3 Demon that every Demon build is built around, Floating Watcher, you can be in an almost untouchable position from there until the end game.

Very easily.

You have 4 cards at Rank 3 for Demon, Floating Watcher, Imp Gang Boss, Crystal Weaver and Soul Juggler.

At a crucial time in the game, murloc vs demon is as follows:

13 potential cards for Murloc.
52 potential cards for Demon.

That is a significantly better chance of improving at Rank 3, the mid part of the game, an important part of the game. Murloc is left with very little, whilst Demon have a really good chance of drawing cards they need.

Overall Demons are too strong right now, and they need to be toned down. Floating Watcher to 4, and a debuff to Souljuggler are the really requirements.

4 Likes
9

You realise you are describing high roll right? Demons need a high roll. If your turn 3 and 4, you can’t find demon? You probably lose so much health you can’t build much from there. Your triples don’t find floating? You go to T3 so late, floating can’t be buff much anymore. You super highrolled? Good for you and suddenly met a random divine poisonous murloc and cause your health us so low despite not losing a fight, you died. Almost every other game, the 7/8 place is a demon player for that reason.

Don’t get me wrong, demon 8s good but they ain’t game breaking due to consistency issue. A good start should always lead to top 4, but to win BG at T6, you need to make sure you don’t get poison tech which is not within your control.

Overall, demon is good but not overpowering the other tribes.

Demon have stats, beast have in battle buff, mechs have divine shields, murloc have divine poison. They works in their own way with murloc being strongest end game but least consistent.

On homoculous, its quite low on my list of T1 choice. You pick it, you ’ lost first fight’ and sometimes you even lose again on bad curator or yogg roll. Turn 2? Rafaam, bartender or daryl or a demon player who took wraith weaver on turn 1 and pick a second demon on turn 2. You lose again. It’s not guaranteed. Hence not a to go choice but probably middle of the T1 pack.

10

Null,

It isn’t a ‘super’ high roll to triple Voidwalker when there are 18 copies of it and you are one of the few players still at Tier 1. That isn’t super high rolling.

Yes RNG plays a part, welcome to Hearthstone, but claiming some ‘super’ high roll to get strong when it is no more high rolling than any other build, is unfair; especially since your high rolling makes you far stronger than any other high rolling on any other build.

It is game breaking to have a build that is so strong in the early / mid-game.

No build should be unbeatable from turn 5 to turn 12. It doesn’t matter how ‘super’ high rolling it is to get, it shouldn’t be possible.

Beasts can’t do that.
Mechs can’t do that.
Murlocs can’t do that.

Why is it not broken that Demon can do that? Because of the health sacrifice?

That is irrelevant if your build is so strong that you are not losing matches until the end game. So what if when you lose after entering the top 4 you are out because your health is gone.

The entire premise of the mode is to reach top 4, and you have done that.

I won’t debate about homunulus with you, play it or not is irrelevant to the discussions.

3 Likes
11

I won’t call them invincible turn 5 to 12. I have once had a pretty good demon roll and lost badly to a murloc with double warleader. The old murkeye can take out 1 big wraith weaver on its own. And that’s it for me.

Meanwhile, they need health for stats, tripling void caller isn’t the hardest, not sure if you want to triple homoculous since that is 6 health gone. There is 12 minions in T1, each roll you see 3 minions, the only nice triples is void caller, your gold is limited in early turn, your rolls are limited. It still take a good chance to find void caller. And the sacrifice of demon isn’t just health, its early game bad rolls. A bad turn 3-5 and you can kiss goodbye to the whole demon strategy. What you going to do with 18 health remaining? So it’s highroll because your first few turn need to be near perfect. And even with good rolls, your opponent cannot have be so good it just blast you down in your health. Everything have to ticks. Worst is, people who decided on demon have to force demon at the start and guess what this does? Lower the number of void caller in the pool, if you have 3 demon players 1 is almost certain to hit 8 place because his roll will be so bad. Like you say, top 4 is the aim and demon won’t be something I will try unless I start with wraith weaver, void caller, void caller. Mechs is just so much more consistent if you just want top 4.

12

Null,

Thing is you are just arguing that it is difficult, like building any build in Battlegrounds isn’t difficult and isn’t based on luck. That gold isn’t an issue for those builds or that tripling isn’t an issue, or that early life totals aren’t an issue.

These are issues for every build, there is nothing particulaly difficult about Demon that sets it apart as MORE difficult.

The difference is what you get for it. You work just as hard to get beasts, do you get 3x 30/30+ minions and a sniper dealing 3 damage every time something dies?

No you don’t, you MAY get that, deep into the top 3, when you are Tier 6 with Barons and Goldrinns, but you won’t have that entering the top 6 when everyone is Tier 4.

Demon can have that, quite easily in fact, it is a regular sight in BG at 6k plus and you see it regularly with streamers at 8k and you see it with streamers at 10k+.

That is overpowered compared to other builds, with no justifiable reason for it to be so.

2 Likes
13

Strange I am at 8k+ and my top 4 hardly see much demon, once in a while they appear but not much. And no demon is way harder to build than a mech or beast build. They sre stronger yes but they are definitely harder. Its like murloc is the hardest of all. Demon really need good early roll to ticks. I have like only 1 8th place in my last 30 to 40 games and guess what, its demons. My can spend a turn rolling at T2 and not getting any demon and just getting wreck until I don’t even have health to keep wraith weaver anymore. And this is as I said, I only go demon if my first travern is good enough for me to give demon a try. So yes, demon is stronger mid game, harder to pull off but a good safety net for top 4 if you roll well early. It’s power spike fall off at end game. Mech is consistent through out, easiest to build but weakest at end game. Beast have good early mid synergy, struggling with mid game and alot rng bad hit as beast have taunts issue, need good tier 5 roll in goldrinn and baron to be truly effective but it’s a very powerful end game tool, tech. Murloc is powerful early, hopelessly weak mid, extremely strong end. If you ask me? None of the 4 tribes are overpowered. They are pretty even with the strength and weakness available to them.

14

So my experience with demons and cobalt is that they are way to efficent for their cost.
At 3 mana you can have both wrath weaver and floating on board, 2 mana if you triple. That means you get floating going up to 20/20 as early as you hit around 2 or 3 stars.
Cobalt is a little more forgiving but still very efficent for 3 stars.
Putting Floating watcher at 4 mana is a reasonable nerf given that wrath weaver still will be able to spiral out of control early, there is no need to have two minion types that goes to doubledigits within the first turns they’re played.

If you don’t agree please explain your reasoning.

2 Likes
15

I am at 6.5k Rating and you see 3 People running Demons every game. Thats ridicolous. And 50/50+ minions in turn 7-9 are no rare thing.

1 Like
16

not going to read some huge personal rant but dev’s are being slow as hell on the nerfs to demons and cobalt faceroll…

I’m not even suprised anymore with the high rolls with zerus high rolling mama bear on turn 4-5 when someone rushed to 3… or afk got it from picking zerus… for a beta still very low changes.

1 Like
17

Dravinian absolutely destroyed Null in that discussion, props to you.

19

Thanks,

I played a game, and recorded that game and I am happy to post the video of it.

4 people in my lobby went Demons.

Top 2 were Demons. I think I came second, this is at 6.5k which is low I know that, but I watch Kripp, Amaz, Collins, 12wins, they are at between 8-11k and they see the exactly same thing.

There are 4 potential builds in the game, Mechs, Murlocs, Beasts and Demons (not counting Tirion, though he is quite good).

Why are 50% of people playing Demon in a single game? Why are people literally going out of their way ignoring the cards before them to take Demon?

It has a clear advantage, from turn 2 (cause you don’t level) all the way to the last 2 players.

Buff every other build, because Demons is fun, and taking it away would suck, but we need to buff the other builds.

20

So always go murlocs whenever you can, and you’ll beat demon :stuck_out_tongue:

21

At this point either remove Floating Watcher either make Maexxna rank 3. Both are solutions to the same problem.
(Toxfin is not the same because it is synergy of TWO minions and anything under 4 hp can get sniped by jugglers too)