I just played a match where my opponent was playing Shaman. In a fair fight I would have won but he had Hagatha and got cards that weren’t even in his deck. He got two healing rains which were casted three times because he had Electra Stormsurge in his deck (which also didnt’t start in his deck just sayin’). He also casted three Hexes during the match (2 were in his deck already). I usually don’t get mad but it felt like I was cheated. And this was not the first time. Matches like this happened to me already. And not just with Hagatha but with other infinite value cards. When my opponents have cards like those it feels terrible to play against. I think these cards should be nerfed. I am interested about others opinion on this.
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It was a fair fight though, inasmuch as obtaining extra resources is 100% allowed by the game.
For every extra Healing Rain and Hex, there’s a thousand extra Ice Fishings and Totemic Mights. And for every Electra and Kalimos, there’s just as many Magma Ragers.
You got highrolled. It happens. It sucks, but it’s part of the game. It’s not any less fair than drawing all your expensive cards first against a perfect-curve Rogue. There is always a random element to the game, and while it can be frustrating, remember you are as likely to benefit from it as you are to lose because of it.
I don’t know you can consider Hagatha an infinite value card. Infinite value cards are things like Deathstalker Rexxar and Frost Lich Jaina (maybe Sulfuras too?), which can constantly generate value from the hero power. Hagatha not only is 100% random, but it relies on you having minions in hand (and it’s not like Shaman is going to run a zero-spell deck just to maximize Hagatha resource generation).
Hagatha is a fun card, and nowhere near as OP as other cards. She makes games interesting by making them slightly less predictable. Sure, you might lose some of those games. But sometimes you lose games in entirely predictable ways (Perfect Curve Midrange Hunter, for example), which (IMO) feels much worse than having RNG against you for a match.
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Rexxar is infinite because a hero power can be cast every turn forever regardless of other factors. Hagatha is not infinite, as she only gives you extra cards when you play a minion, which you can have at most 29 of in your deck plus whatever you discover mid game. Most shaman spells are garbage, so her hero power is definitely not OP.
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Lel, Hagatha is far from OP. Her battlecry deals damage to bothsides of the board. Her battle cry is good but ballanced. It isn’t infinite. It runs out when she runs out of minions. Then a lot of spells are situational.
Lets look at the spells that are garbage or way to situational that they are just bad:
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Beakered lighting - weak aoe damage with huge overload sucks late game
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Totemic Might - Sucks, you don’t even have totems any more
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Ice fishing - Probably don’t have any murlocs
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Primal Talismans - I probably don’t care to spend 3 mana to have my minions summon a totem after it dies.
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Eureka - Probably don’t want to spend 6 mana to summon a copy of a minion in my hand.
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Sapphire spellstone - Too expensive, probably wont fully upgrade it, Not good unless i have anything big that sticks.
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Storm Birnger, Only good if I have a big board and even then I might not get anything that good.
Now these are just the bad ones. There are probably only a few good ones like:
- Earth shock - Silence is always good
- Blazing invocation - Discover a battlecry minion, more value
- Unstable Evolution- With a board this can be strong
- Crushing hand - singal target removal as long as it has 8hp or less
- Healing rain - healing is always nice
- Lava Burst - 5 damage is nice
- Lighting Storm - AOE damage is good
- Hex - Polymorph effect is always strong
- Volcano - More aoe damage is pretty good
- Bloodlust - Again it’s strong but you need a board.
Then all the rest of the spells not mentioned are only Ok at best. You gotta keep in mine shaman doesn’t have the ridiculous spells that other classes have. And most spells have an overload effect which is a big drawback and is something that needs to be played around.
Also, those junk spells clutter your hand and eventually must be played in order to avoid burning the stuff off the top of your deck. I’ve had plenty of turns where I have to Eureka to summon a 4 drop, or storm bringer a single minion just so that my hand doesn’t overfill.
Hagatha is still a very potent card, and will be notably more powerful with fewer other hero replacements around to compare her to in standard, but she has a few drawbacks with hand clutter cards that mess up your curve.
It ain’t infinite value. It’s one spell for each minion you can play afteryou play it.
I’ll disagree with people saying she ain’t great cause “shaman spells are bad”, more often than not you will be glad you played her and got the spells she generated.
And no, you didn’t get cheated, he payed 8 mana to aoe and generate spells, which is pretty good but not unfair.
Hagatha’s balanced by the follow facts;
- she’s not infinite value
- she’s RNG-based.
The issues you have can actually be found in Dr Boom, the Mad Genius (hero card), which does in fact net you infinite value.
Dr Boom definitely gets you more value than Hagatha, but both are reasonably balanced. Neither one has the impact that the DK hero cards do and will probably be the template they use to create hero cards after this year going forward.
And past rotation only some classes will have these OP deathknights. So tired of matches being won/lost by one card. So tired of blizzard not testing stuff before release.
Even a child would realize that Baku/Gen would lead to several archetypes with less interactive meta. Do they release every card in a vacuum? How could shudder break animation timer during live games after release. How could they release crystal core quest and then nerf it twice. How ignorant are the playtesters? Do they even playtest?
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Your right hero cards are OP and unfair but you wont be able to convince most of the community under the “anything can happen” brainwashing your complaints will just be dismissed like your a noob who doesn’t understand the game or the idea of fairness and that being able to go infinite is absurdly broken.
You will constantly be put against opponents whose decks dust value is worth more than your entire collection. Blizzard wont weight the matchmaking to take deck power into account as that would impact pack sales.
They will say it’s not infinite while ignoring that it literally generates cards after playing minions for a class that has spells that generate minions, or you can hold in reserve to keep priming the pump. After that they will get pedantic and nitpicky over what “infinite” means. You can make every right move topdeck everything right answer but their advantage is instantly drastically more forgiving, in the end that opponents ability to just out dust you statistically the longer the game goes is all that matters when it comes to whats fair.
So if you want to enjoy the game either only play with friends, or learn to identify archetypes( netdecks, golden tryhards,hero card setups) and just insta concede until you can get a match with someone in your weight class also looking for fun fair play or you will be continually disappointed to find your being purposefully setup to systematically fail to encourage you to buy packs.
MtG:A did that and it also caused a lot of complaints because what deck is closest in ‘dust value’ (MtG:A used a card value)… your deck. So I’d never see a Pirate deck, for instance, make a pirate deck and then BAM I am somehow playing against the same deck o.O
There is probably a way to weight dust to a degree but on the flip side in HS a pure Legendary deck is complete trash so you’d need it to be a minor influence and should only be present in casual.
or 3rd, learn to design and develop decks which are good against X% of the meta and write-off Y% of the meta. This is how I use homebrews to reach r5 - legend all the time. People need to learn to not try and ‘solve’ the entire meta but to pick pieces apart that can generate a high enough WR.
As for “Is Hagatha infinite value?” Not in the sense of Jade Idol or Rexxar but against most classes and in most scenarios she does act close enough to infinite value to be basically there. Is it true infinite value? No, as Shaman does have low enough card draw that having minimal cards can happen at times but correctly built decks will fuel Hagatha enough to create a HIGH amount of value and I actually think, unlike others, that Hagatha is better than Dr. Boom for generating the value in a correctly built deck.
Now is she balanced? I’d agree that she is for now but I could see a scenario where Hagatha fuels a VERY strong deck if not dominant.
Hagatha is a good card that will become better once she’s one of the only 3 DKs in standart but - as people stated before - she’s very far from being OP. Shaman spells vary like crazy.
I think as well it’s way too much value.
Technically its not infinite because he would run out of minions at some point. Why is adding value to your deck a bad thing? I guess I don’t get it. Do you really want to play a game where the minions have no effects and are all 4 mana 4-4 or 5 mana 5-5?
Value is good, value makes the game fun.
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It’s limited by the number of creatures the deck runs. Can we stop throwing the term “infinite value” around constantly? Just because some dude said it once doesn’t mean everyone here has to parrot it. Almost as bad as “bad design” being thrown all the time. Infinite means without end. Hagatha’s generation is linked to a finite amount of creatures in the deck. Ergo, it is not “infinite” value.
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You get more minions with spells and more spells with minions. It’s as infinite as Rexxar. As you can also argue Rexxar is limited by fatigue which is true.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure you have to PLAY a minion for Hagathas hero power to work. Minions summoned by spells dont count.
Maybe they are referring to Blazing Invocation? That one discovers a minion with a Battlecry. And Spirit Echo returns minions to your hand, which technically counts as creating more minions to feed Hagatha’s hero power. Of course, good luck having any hand space after playing Hagatha…
No, Hagatha is not as infinite as Rexxar.
If Hagatha is your last card, she will generate zero spells if you are out of minions.
Rexxar as your last card will generate a beast every turn until you die of fatigue (and can generate some that repopulate your deck).
If you don’t have minions, you don’t get spells with Hagatha. Rexxar gives you a beast every turn that you have 2 mana.
In that sense, Hagatha has a far lower top end value potential than Rexxar does.
Don’t get me wrong, Hagatha generates a very large amount of value if activated early enough, and on average, you are going to get something good out of it, but she isn’t infinite, or close to.
She is probably the strongest hero card that will be around next year though. Dr. Boom is a bit unpredictable and often lower impact effects. Zul’Jin becomming good again would require blizz pushing the spell hunter archetype hard again.
Hagatha is not infinite Value, you need to play minions in order to get random spells. And some shaman spells are just too weak and won’t help you.
Even Frost Lich Jaina needs to spend resources in order to create elementals.
On the other hand, Deathstalker Rexxar is OP.
One army card, even if you play an Aggro deck you can still win against control with the DK.
Plus, Deckstalker rexxar provide you infinite value of your choice, it is not as random as Hagatha’s spell.
Seriously, I don’t understand how Blizzard allowed a card of Deathstalker Rexxar to exist and not nerfing it once Rush and Lifesteal mechanics were introduced.
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