That’s practically what it is now.
So I see you like taking things out of context.
Oddly, top players seemingly know how to play against the decks that are complained here. This suggests us lower ranked players may be making misplays. Admit it or not, but the lower rank, the more misplays will be made, therefore inaccurately representing the power level of decks. This is exactly why high ranked players are where the basis for nerfs comes from. People tend to feel like they’re being annoyed but seemingly misunderstand this very simple, solid reasoning.
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Knowing how to play against them has never been an argument though.
Top ranked players knew how to beat APM decks. They still got killed.
They knew how to play against Tempo burn.
It still got killed.
They knew how to play against the Dawngrasp deck. It still got killed.
Once again; there is a glaring double standard when it comes to certain cards and classes that get ignored while being every bit as unfun and oppressive as any that have come before.
Hey, I’m not saying these decks are fine as is – there are certainly ongoing issues and there will always be (a fact I believe you need to accept). Yes, top players lose. They lose a lot. They win a lot, too. My point is this: These high legend players are at those ranks for a reason. They have the knowledge of every meta deck, and can predict what is going to be played before it’s played. A skill many players lack, despite the obvious predictability many decks share nowadays.
Anyway, back to the main point. High ranked players, where decks are played closest to optimally, should be the basis for nerfs. Nerfs should not be based on low ranked players that, forgive me, are bad.
Do you disagree with that view?
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And I agree completely.
Where I have a problem is when high ranking players call for nerfs based on their particular prejudices, as opposed to performance, and Team 5 panders to them.
In which context can an animal survive having their heart hardened?
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They’re people too. They don’t like somethin’, they’re not much different than those that get their panties in a bunch here. Like all of us, even with their immense knowledge and skill, they want the game to cater to them. It’s a selfish take, essentially, but we all (me included) for into that pitfall very often. That’s why anymore I utilize a lot of HSReplay to determine the actual power levels and playrates of decks.
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Point taken. Still; I’m sick of their wish lists always getting filled while the rest of us slobs pound sand.
We don’t get sand so much as it takes us lower ranked players time for the higher ranked metas to trickle down to us. So, we’re getting the same treatment in a way, but it’s a delayed effect.
Patience, grasshopper. 
Mall, have ya tried Legends of Runeterra? Akin to Hearthstone, it’s quite simple and also has many “challenges” for new players to inform them just about everything in the game before they actually compete against real players. The board is simple, and the graphics are far, far better than Hearthstone if that’s your thing.
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We get our complaints completely ignored.
There is a small group of players that really love Druid, Pally, Shaman and Hunter, and those classes have gotten the massage treatment for quite awhile now. One or more of them is always top tier.
There has never been a time when all of them made up the bottom tiers and there never will be, I’m guessing.
Let’s be honest, though. We cannot take this particular meta and use it to justify that, for instance, mage has always been targeted. I truly believe it’s a playrate issue. If mage has a viable deck, for whatever reason, players congregate to it. This leads to the majority of non-mage players becoming frustrated because, sure, it is fine to run into a mage here and there. However, when a class comprises over 20% of the meta… it leads to unfunness. That is the total opposite of the goal for a game made for players to enjoy themselves. If players do not enjoy themselves, there’s a severe problem because that leads to a drop-off in player count. This means less purchases, like not purchasing the Tavern Pass, not purchasing cosmetics, not purchasing Runestones, and so on. It can really (significantly) hurt the bottom line. We need to remember, this is a business, after odd. And so, the idea is to generally aim to balance in a way that sometimes seems nonsensical but makes sense when you take a step back and look at how such patches help to balance the meta differently. I am not defending Team 5 because they make mistakes left and right. But I would wager what I am saying is true.
Not only is playrate the problem, however. Another, potentially bigger problem, is players very often hate the iterations mages are capable of playing. For instance, take Spooky Mage. It’s a stall deck with a powerful package of kamazi minions, they’re almost like control tools; half of the time when players try and destroy them. Their explosions often target and or kill your minions. Their damage often hits your face, especially if you have no board. And then, there’s Keal’Thuzad, often leading to an OTK if said player managed to summon (and have killed) many skeletons, which is easy to do.
It’s the stall. No one likes the feeling that for, sometimes, numerous turns because they’re unable to do anything with their board. It feels, essentially, like that player cannot play. While I never get tilted and can handle the freezing and skeletons, I can still empathize where these people are coming from. Can’t you?
(I am sorry I ignored you for a while. I have a hard time letting go of grudges. And to be honest, Mall, it doesn’t seem that you changed in the sentiments that can be found in your posts. No offense, but it looks like every time there is an opportunity to crap on Team 5 and Blizzard, you dig right in. However, this has been going on for years now. Maybe try and turn a new leaf. I am not disregarding your views and complaints because they are often valid. But, please, work on being a little more positive, man.)
Lastly, have you tried Legends of Runeterra? It’s simple, and as you pointed out before about Hearthsone’s board being simple and intuitive, so is LoR’s. I really think you would like it and I am not being a shill. Oh, and one of the best parts is: it is extremely FTP friendly. You really don’t need to spend a nickle. Fantastic graphics, awesome heroes, fantastic effects… it’s just such a solid game. I’ve been working on knocking out the challenges to unlock all free decks (and there are like 5-10 free decks).
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Of course for the group of players who enjoy 4 different classes they will have more flexibility and ability to enjoy the game at substantially more times than players who pigeonhole themselves to a single class or archetype.
I don’t understand why this basic logical situation presents a problem for the game of Hearthstone, over any competitors like Magic and Runeterra.
A class making up 20% of the meta honestly should not be a bad thing in itself.
There is 9 classes,the average playrate is 11%.
Add in the natural popularity and dis-popularity that certain classes have and it is not that difficult to end up with a 20% playrate for even a fairly balanced deck.
Mage is popular in general,often with sub-par decks. This is not a sign that there is something wrong with mage on the contrary. It is a sign of the excelent design of mage that makes the class atractive to many players. Even if the decks itself objectively are not all that great.
Its a 2 card meta,i said so already on the first day after expansion came out. It doesnt have much to do with class balance in itself. Its all about those 2 cards and which class can use them the best.
But knowing blizzard,they love those 2 cards and will do everything to keep them around. Even if that means nerfing the classes which can utilize those cards the best,instead of the cards themselves.
I think its a design phylosophy tbh,to help make design and balance easier. The focus is on a few cards , mechanics and archetypes every expansion.
And everything around those few cards,mechanics and archetypes,which i guess is well over 75% of the game, is a potential candidate for a nerf.
They wont touch their focus cards not even when they are a problem. Instead they will try create balance by targetting anything but the focus cards.
And that is how you get the random nerfs that have been popping up lately. While obvious candidates remain untouched or are only nerfed very slightly.
I am your friend as well and happy to let bygones be bygones.
To Team 5 and Blizzard? What exactly should i be doing?
Praising them for making the game ever more powercrept and brainless?
Show me something that a mage player like myself will find enjoyable and i will be first in line to cheer them.
They turned mage into a weird Warlock/Pally hybrid, and gave every single class some formerly exclusive mage ability.
Many they gave as neutrals.
I play now only to complete Quests because that is literally all that is left to me.
So forgive me for being the pessimist and the grump, but this game has turned into Yugioh.
A product that has never been as successful as HS because it is too much in every single regard.
Players and their wants are not improving this product. They are driving it into the ground.
HS was never intended to be complex. That simplicity and elegance was the whole point.
I recommend Big Spell Mage (the better deck) or Spooky Mage (the lesser deck). For are, in my experience (I play them frequently for quest completions). Have you given them a shot?
@Mallenroh – we now have a new game director. Perhaps, and let us cross our fingers, that this will make for some positive changes.
You pulled a switcheroo with Class and Deck.
A class being at 20 and a deck being at 20 are not the same thing.
I keep asking for the receipts, and nobody has them. What we have are a bunch of people spouting made up talking points about past nerfs, and then other people coming to complain about Blizzard doing those nerfs on the basis of the made up talking points.
Why did they actually nerf X, Y, or Z deck? Show me the patch notes! Show me the dev interview!
We have plenty of past examples of high play rate, powerful neutral cards not getting nerfed. Reno Jackson and Zilliax come to mind.
Just like Classes and Decks are two separate categories, so is Neutral Cards a completely different category.
And I would like to point out that more decks that don’t use Renathal and Denathrius are prominent after the latest patch.
Because what happens isn’t that people want balance. No, they want blood. And they don’t feel like they got their share of bloody murder in the last patch.
I’m not a fan of spook mage. It has nothing to do with mage imo.
I am hopeful that Secret mage will get further support in the mini set.
Perhaps I will be back to Standard if that happens.
I believe you need to adapt and realize that in an 8-year-old game, class identity frequently changes. If the game remained static, it would have died years ago. Pushing classes into different archetypes that, while sometimes seeming nonsensical to “class identity”*, it’s a necessary evil (if you can call it that). Change is necessary. And bold design decisions are welcome by most players. Again – we need to learn to accept the changing times.
No offense, but sometimes, you remind me of a dog on a treadmill chasing a hot dog hanging by a string just out of their reach. You will never get what you want if you refuse to change and accept the changes made to the game. I, for one, always look forward to change. It’s exciting for me. When I first started playing, I think the idea of class identity was still existing. But, there comes a point, again in an 8-year-old-game, that it is impossible for Team 5 not to switch things up.
Try and adapt, accept, and have fun. Please, Mall, don’t take this as a lecture. I am only trying to get through to you a little bit.
- Class identity has died years ago. We need to accept it. The problem lies in that to pigeon hole classes to some sort of “class identity” very significantly limits design space.
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I don’t feel like they are doing anything new.
Recycling playstyles between classes does not feel new to me.
What is spook mage but a DR token deck?
And now Shaman is a tempo mage.
Etc.