How to enable healthy mage decks

Multiplayer Discussion
1

I know many here are against any sort of spell that can go to face but…

Runic orb and ignite should do 3 damage.

Is that simple.

How that enable healthy mage decks?

Those 2 spells are the base for any mage strategy overall.
The fact they do 2 damage just put they in a terrible awkward position were the spells are both necessary and bad.

In fact even data about they is misleading about those 2 cards because the only deck available for mage right now is a deck that wins by slamming spells in the opponent face.

This put they in a position similar of combo pieces of combo decks. Their Winrate is inflated by how the decks work.

With those 2 cards being good by themselves you could consider strategies that are less highrolly than using incanter’s flow like using spell damage minions.

And what about the consequences of those changes for questmage?

There are 2 main points about incanter’s flow having a big influence over matches:

  1. The entire is made around by having tons of spells.

This was already dealt with changing the cost of the card from 2 to 3.

  1. Wanna know when incanter’s flow Winrate spyked before?
    It got bigger after each spell mage nerf in the past.

And no incanter’s flow not got more powerful because of the nerfs.

It’s the deck Winrate that tanked hard making incanters flow highrolls most of it’s wins.

In other words:

If you buff other cards of the deck incanters flow Winrate will drop from it’s actual 60% and reach acceptable levels.

I believe that both it’s impact on quest mage and other mage decks are enough to discuss buffing those cards.

2

Ignite at 3 damage would be okay.

Runed Orb at 3 damage would be busted as hell. And maybe they want Runed Orb to be busted as hell, but I doubt it.

2 Likes
3

Bring back spell cost reduction (arcane luminary is a pitiful, Sad card, and Evocation alongside It), OR buff Spell damage Mage (a heavily minion based deck, which can be interacted with at any time), OR buff any fire Mage minion, or HP mage minion.

4

Runed orb nowadays is a self fulfilling prophecy.

You generate a card that you actually need to use. So in other words it’s the same as not generate a card at all.

Be it another card to help remove something together with orb.
Be it spell damage to make the damage actually meaningful.

The fact is that 2 damage is so inefficient that all mage decks suffer by having a card that is supposed to be an actual pillar being actually inefficient.

5

A deck based on burning your opponent’s face off and ignoring board and board control doesn’t sound like a healthy deck. Boosting its winrate by making the burn better just seems like a bad idea

Edit: ignore board as much as possible*

4 Likes
6

And make those 2 cards better aren’t a buff for all those decks?

Sorry but mage minions aren’t weak at all. The spells are what is actually bad.

The problem is that incanters flow is the most efficient way to buff spells.

So unless you make those spells unnecessary to buff or atleast less needy for it incanters flow gonna be the only way to play mage.

You can bring the best minions of the world and the best way to play mage gonna still be using incanter’s flow(unless they’re broken) if you not pass by changing spells.

7

But ANY spell buffed would also buff no minion Mage and it’s variants, so It HAS to be a minion buff. Any spell buff is also even better with flow.

May as well buff board centric existing archetypes with a minion buff.

6 Likes
8

Kill the deck after if that turns into an issue.

Really.

The fact is that a transitional phase were both are allowed is inevitable and sincerely a less unhealthy version of spell mage isn’t as bad as some wanna paint.

Like i said…
While a spell deck isn’t the best thing in the world it’s the fact that it would be as much healthy as spell mage(questline mage) can be without incanters flow being important anymore.

9

A card that answers 1-3 drops, and generates value of your choice is just broken in the early game.

And then in the late game, Runed Orb helps find lethal or just generating stuff. Like “2 mana, discover a spell” is already not awful as a late game draw.

They could maybe make it 3 mana, deal 3, generate a spell. That’d be pretty fair. But 2 mana, deal 3, generate a spell is really strong.

2 Likes
10

The actual not answer even 2 drops most of the time.

It can feel fair but the keyword is it feels fair.

Be fair is slightly different.

And as a player i really not see how:

2 mana answer a 2 mana minion and not lose a card in your hand by doing it is unfair.

It’s pretty much a little stronger but not too much when compared to old cards like frostbolt.

People are overstimating too much it’s effect nowadays and the proof is how mage is doing right now.

11

I think they should delete Incanter’s Flow because the card itself will always cause rage (even if it was 8 mana, people would lose their minds for no logical reason) but to compensate they need to make a few adjustments to other cards (or introduce new cards in the mini-set) and shift the design away from mana cheat.

Arcane Intellect is a bad card and they need to introduce some type of full cost card draw that can compete with other 3 mana draw effects.

Revert the nerf to Refreshing Spring Water (with the caveat that the deck will need to run minions). RSW + no minion package causes balance issues, but RSW in a deck with 6+ minions is a risk/reward play and not a free draw like it is in no minion.

Which leads me to: add minion synergy. Maybe give mage something like a Marshpawn that will let them discover either a frost, arcane or fire spell. I’m no designer, but if they just give mage similar cards to elemental shaman (i.e., minions with helpful battlecries that also keep up tempo) then they can move away from no minion and people will have less to complain about “interactivity”.

12

Mage needs better minions & better reasons to run minions. Buffing their spells seems unnecessary given their best deck is all spells & they have a lot of spells that encourage pure spell decks.

4 Likes
13

The problem is that this synergy exist and isn’t really bad.

Spell damage, hero power , fire…

Reality is that if mage spells still need some sort of buff to be even playable then the best card gonna always be incanter’s flow.

While i not against deleting incanters flow I also trying to be realistic when having spectations and i personally doubt devs would even do something like admit that print this card was a mistake.

In fact unironically the deck that benefits less from those 2 buffs is questline mage.

Because while it still benefits .1+ damage for someone burning the opponents face is far less important than for someone trying to remove a minion.

14

Like Firebrand. Here’s a simple metric for you, Blizzard. If Firebrand is unplayable garbage, your meta is awful.

2 Likes
15

The ONLY way I agree that ignite and runic orb need a buff is if the cards could NOT hit face. There are specific, costly cards that do face damage, and honestly with mana cheating they need to be increased in cost. Fireball should be 6 mana 6 damage because it needs no synergy to be good. Other cards that cost more are fine. They require some finesse to get good face value.

2 Likes
16

I personally think the minions for mage in the 3 mana - 5 mana range are underwhelming. Spell damage is great, but without discounts, it’s so hard to have anything stick and it’s basically a dead card (which is why quest is so good because the spell damage stays). Perhaps more cards like +2 spell damage for your next fire spell (regardless if minion dies) is a path forward?

Edit: Although people would be pissed about this too because it’s “uninteractive”… yeah i don’t know how to fix this class.

17

How do I click like for the first half of your post, but unlike for the second? :stuck_out_tongue: Runed Orb and Ignite dealing 3 but to minions is a reasonable change, though probably more of a nerf than a buff. Could be interesting for Ignite since it no longer is infinite fatigue protection if you run out of minions to target.

BUT, Fireball has been in the game forever and is appropriately costed. It’s not Fireball’s fault that it’s sometimes 2 mana deal 9.

18

Fireball has been in the game forever. How is 4 mana for 6 damage not fair?

19

I always thought the gameplay problem of the mage deck is, after trying out a sample in brawl, vs playing against it. It’s fun for the mage and the mage interacts thinking over which frost, arcane, and fire spell to play.

But the other side spends it’s entire time with gameplay options being unable to interact with the mage. Wondering if playing a minion or not is the right or wrong play. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. The mage is just very inconsistent and gives no tells.

Usually flooding the board is a risky or instaloss move. Except when the mage doesn’t have a answer. The quest mage vs Quest shaman matchup is just strange and i hear the mirror is ultra weird too.

The deck is so rare at higher ranks you don’t know if you should tech against it, yet it’s been previously crafted / zombie meta so people still have it and pull it out of nowhere.

Playing it vs playing against it are entirely different experiences where the mage has thoughts and decisions, while the player playing against it is unsure if they should play minions or not. leave mana turns empty.

(I love quest shaman as a deck, but making no move on a turn 2/3, sometimes, with even a unused hero power is just anxiety. Nothing seems like the right play.

Do you totem so they burn a card on a useless 0/2 so they don’t second flame your elemental instead? Does that end up doing the wrong thing and let them progress quest so they kill you faster instead? you don’t know.

I get it’s a balanced relatively lower wr deck but i really wish there was just more incentive, even if the cards are all spell, for mage to still play and give things to interact. Maybe rotate the freezing spell, but replace that 0 mana freeze 2 card with say a spell that’s 3 mana to summon a random 3-4 mana minion, maybe possibly discovering a card as well if they have played a minion within the last few turns?

Maybe some special cards that are minions that count as a spell in hand or don’t mess up spring water. idk.

20

They really don’t.

They require extra steps to do the same thing everyone does.

Skill is only a factor when you can get actual advantage by having it.

When you need skill to literally not fall behind the error was selecting that card/deck in first place and you’re bad just by hitting the play button with that choice.

Mage was born with a different standard for damage spells the same way druid plays bigger stuff and many other classes do their thing.

It’s even why frostbolt does 3 damage and fireball still do 6.