Hearthstone Muslim Togetherness Thread

Community Discussion
176

Mhh i want to answer so i try to avoid certain topics while answering.

If the person is a male or a female, clearly they should be allowed to compete in the respected categories? But what defines our gender?

That was exactly my point here. Can i say “i am a woman now” than become a top female athlete, beating records? (well I cant, beacuse i am not an athlete myself, but male athlets could) This is not a yes or no topic, it is more complex than that.

If the church provides a public service, clearly they shouldnt be allowed to discriminate? This goes for other public services.

What abaout freedom of religion? Sadly a lot of religions are against homosexuality and would break there own rules, if they are “forced” to let you marry in their church. Would that not be discrimination against that religion?

his leans heavy on the rights of the children. They too have a right to bodily autonomy.

So a child has the right to undergo transition. A progress that has a giant impact on your body? It is not that easy, is it?

If im going around calling you a woman, if you are a male, at work, i might get fired too. Especially if you have a problem with it. I can see this being a reasonable consequence of my actions. Dont you? Getting a fine? Weird claim.

In fact misgendering is something that happens to me all the time, because my first name is mostly used by woman, but i am male. With he and she it is easy and clear. You correct them, they say sorry and you carry on.

I am not a native english speaker. I have learned that they/them is used for plural. And there is no they/them counterpart in my language. I have to stop speaking mid sentence and active think about using the pronouns. Which than can sound like i want make fun of you. :confused:

And where does it end?
I have met someone online, who told me that his preferred pronouns are “He/them”
I cant even understand what that means. He told me it is because “his gender identity is a mess”
What does that even mean?
10 Seconds ago i learned about Ze/Per/Hir while “researching” this topic online (as i said before, i am an outsider) After that i found Neopronouns and gave up.

Oh and yes, there are instances of law makers discussing fines for misgendering. So why is it a weird claim?

For example i found this article from 2016 from the New York Post:
Employers and landlords who intentionally and consistently ignore using pronouns such as “ze/hir” to refer to transgender workers and tenants who request them — may be subject to fines as high as $250,000.

And yes i know this is not about accidentally misusing a transgender person’s preferred pronoun. But to be honest, if i have to learn using Xe/Xem/Xyr/Xyrs/Xemself while talking about you, than maybe i will just ignore that and use He/she instead.

2 Likes
178

It means that he is comfortable being called “he” or “them.” It

It means he’s (or they) is/are still exploring what it means to be himself. It means that you can use either of those pronouns and be respectful. Just don’t call him “she” and you should be fine.

I have been deeply involved with the LGBT community, and the transgender community in particular, for almost a decade. I have met fewer people who use Z/Hir/etc. than I can count on the fingers of one hand. Of those I’ve known they rapidly change because it’s impossible to get the world to follow along. Perhaps it’s my age, but I also think most neo-pronouns are silly. The majority of the ones you’ll find on the massive lists were created by people who just wanted to make waves and push boundaries.

If you meet someone who wants to use “Ze/Zim” or whatever you can respectfully say that you’ll try but it’s so unique and unfamiliar that you are likely to screw up the majority of the time. If they’re unreasonable enough that they can’t accept human frailty then you probably don’t want to hang out with them in the first place. :slight_smile:

Pronoun usage is by far the hardest part of cisgender people dealing with transgender people. Our brains are hardwired to, for example, see breasts and say “she.” It’s worth learning, even to the point of practicing in front of a picture if it’s someone you see a lot and truly care about.

The second hardest part is names for anyone you’ve known for a long time. Those also get hardwired. In both cases it’s a matter of retraining oneself to use the respectful phrases.

1 Like
179

Ofc it is. Forums usually have rules. If you dont follow them, there is consequences. This applies to everyone. But who is the one crying about it? Do you expect society to create a safespace for you, where your words and actions dont have consequences?

Have you tried going into yourself, and try figure out why you are getting banned? Perhaps it would be wise not to blame everyone else, the forums, the consequences of your words and actions, but perhaps see if there is something we do wrong ourselves.

You still dont see the irony do you?

180

No one is merely “saying” they are male or female, then being allowed to enter a gender specific competition. Thats an incredibly weak strawman argument on your part. You cant be this naive? Surely…

Freedom of religion doesnt include a right to discriminate if they offer public services, and/or are exempt from taxes. If they are private, then they can do what they want.

A child cannot make medical decisions. But they still have a right to bodily autonomy. The parents are the ones making medical decisions for their children. But the bodily autonomy of the child, weigh heavily.

Lets not get bogged down in your imaginary slippery slope. Your initial argument where someone being fired because they refused to call someone their pronoun. I simply pointed out the fact that if they continue to call someone, wrongly, and harrass them like that, this might have consequences. Like being fired.

Yes if they consistently and intentionally harrass someone, by refusing to use correct pronoun. If you as a man show up at a work place. (hypothetical) And the employer consistently and intentionally refuse to call you a man, calls you Ms Thatos, even though you insist you are infact a man and whant to be called Mr Thatos. Thats harrassment. And the employer face concequences of said actions. Unfair?

2 Likes
182

I don’t know. Blizzard seems to try and be open about why there banning you unlike face book and Twitter that more than most often are very hush and just tell you they banned you for “insert random clause” of their tos. At least I pay Blizzard out of pocket so it’s a choice thing. Even if they tell me why I don’t always agree with the why. I’ve challenged everyone of my bans and to not prevail I still get stuck with a few days off. It’s not a big deal. It really doesn’t change anything. Personally I choke it up to them thinking I have “wrong think” and no if no ones threatening harm I don’t really care what people say and don’t see a reason to ban someone or change my ways. The community can deal with my tomfoolery or Blizzard can perma ban me.

As far as Ben Shapiro goes, no I don’t see any irony but as it seems to be a very sensitive subject all I can say is I’m not against trans people but I do see trans as a mental disorder and I’m strongly against allowing minors (kids) transition. Part of the problem with modern day trans is it’s become like peer pressured or hype and that’s a terrible reason to let a minor do anything. That’s what Been was mostly highlighting in his video. Kids are stupid but also easily influenced by bad parents but the story we get is we all most be tolerant and accepting. That’s foolish and if not being outraged by the stuff being dumped on kids doesn’t bother you I feel bad for you. I really do. Maybe you could use some exposer to more conservative friends and hear them out.

1 Like
183

No one is merely “saying” they are male or female, then being allowed to enter a gender specific competition. Thats an incredibly weak strawman argument on your part. You cant be this naive? Surely…

So you know the rules to enter a gender specific competition? Please tell me, because i realy do not know them. This btw does not answer the question i asked.
A born male has an advantage over a born female it a lot of sports. A top male athlete will defeat a top female athlete most of the times.
So where does a Woman (born male) compete? What would be equal rights here?

Freedom of religion doesnt include a right to discriminate if they offer public services, and/or are exempt from taxes. If they are private, then they can do what they want.

Sadly, that is not true in a lot of countries and religions.

But we do not need to talk about all this. All of my examples (The same goes for children and transition.) are just to show that the topic of equality is not just black and white. It is a lot more complex than that.

Lets talk about the pronouns thing, because that is an interesting case.
You are talking about beeing called a man or woman as your argument. I am not sure why you ignore the topic of preferred pronoun.
There is a difference between beeing called he/she or Xe. Xe (or They for that matter) is a word that you have choosen for yourself.
Can i do the same? Or are there rules what i am allowed to do?

If you do not want to have contact with someone, because he/she/they do not respect you by not using your preferred pronoun, than that is ok, it makes sense. But calling it harassment because i am talking with another person about you, not using these pronouns seems a bit much to me.

1 Like
184

I’m not sure if you’re asking for the legal argument or just asking for their opinion, but legally it’s complicated. Any time you bring a case like this before a judge they are going to have to decide whether the behavior constitutes harassment or not and that depends a lot on interpretation. If you are refusing to use a neopronoun because it’s annoying and hard to remember the judge will have to decide if you’re doing it deliberately with intent to harass the person in question. If you make the effort of using gender neutral they/them and just refuse to use the more out there pronouns I can’t see any normal judge ruling against you for that.

Also, this is an incredibly fringe argument. Trans people are already a small segment of the population, nonbinary identified people are a sliver of that, ones that use neopronouns are a small sliver of that, and nonbinary people who use neopronouns and actually get upset if you don’t get their pronouns correct are a tiny, tiny sliver of those people. We’re basically talking about unicorns here. All the nonbinary people I’ve ever met they were all cool with the typical “they/them” pronouns even if they might have preferred something else.

1 Like
185

From now on your pronoun shall be potato. Have a good night potato.

1 Like
186

My pronoun is potato? :laughing:

187

Si, senior potato. It’s very fitting.

188

I am more interested in opinions right now, not in legal advise.
I know, that the situations i used as example are unlikly to ever happen. So why bring these up in the first place?
Well, my goal was to show, that this topic is not as easy, as people think it is.
For some reason people think that there are only 2 valid opinions:

  1. You think everyone can identify as everything and if you have a different opinion you should be publicly shamed and go to jail.
  2. You think, there are only 2 genders and everyone, who believes otherwise, is mentaly ill.

I believe the truth should be in the middle.
I support the right to be homosexual, transgender and to be able to identify as whatever you want. I support, that same-sex marriage should be treated equal to traditional marriage.
But i also think, that we have to look at problems that come from this. How are other people influenced by this? And how can we make sure, that nobody is treated worse than others. Your rights should end where you restrict the rights of others.

But how would we do this? I do not know. For that reason i like to discuss such topics and see different opinions.

1 Like
189

Its the same debunked, ignorant argument that was used, and are still used in certain fundamentalist circles, against homosexuality. We know better today. The fact that you cant be bothered to read up on the subject, doesnt excuse your ignorant arguments. Wich is probably why you are getting banned. Would you use same argument against homosexuality? Calling it a mental disorder? If not, do you understand why you might be banned if you do so? Because its so obviously dumb, harmful and pathetic?

Gender isnt a black or white thing. I just happened to read about a woman today, who where born in a boy body, but in every sense of the word, was infact a girl. She where allways a girl. She didnt even know she was born a boy, until her parents at a later stage, told her she was a bit “different” than other girls. And even early on, as a child, you would struggle to see it, because she looked like a girl. She just happened to be born with the wrong body. I dont know what treatments she had, but she whent through female puberty. And grew up to be a stunning woman. A model infact. You wouldnt tell her apart from other women.

These cases do exist, and is the reason why you simply cannot have such a black or white, ignorant look on the subject. Heck, there are cases where men are born with xx chromosomes, vise versa. So what does dictate our gender? What does make us boy or a girl? Men or a woman? You simply cannot reduce it to genetalia. Studies, science is way way way past that. And a religious fundamentalist like Shapiro, who embarrassed himself on BBC, is as ignorant on this subject, as he is on plenty others.

1 Like
190

I agree that there is lots of middle ground in this conversation and that shunning people for not being 100% on your side is unhelpful. I just don’t think this is the best example you could have used since the laws enforcing pronoun usage are really just expansions of existing harassment laws. If you treat people with respect, then you will be fine.

I am more interested in opinions right now, not in legal advise.

My opinion is that if you want to be called by a certain pronoun or a certain nickname then you should go for it! People decide they want to go by new nicknames all the time and for the most part others are happy to oblige. My little sister went by her middle name until she became an adult and now she goes by her first name. My older brother goes by a nickname to everyone he knows, but uses his given name at work.

If you decide to try out some new pronouns or a new nickname you’ll find the process very similar to what a trans person goes through, some people will be on board immediately, some people will be hesitant, and some people will be obstinate.

191

This much i allready knew. You dont even bother reading up on the subject, before you spew your claims? What does that tell you?

I never said the subjects are black or white. I stated, you are either for equality, or you are not. This is a correct dichotomy, regardless of trans athletes in gender spesific sports. Or regardless of what discrimination some country allow or not.

If you are infact a man. You dont choose to call yourself a man? Or Mr? I do. And i would be pissed if my work place, harrassed me by calling me a woman, or Ms.

Another strawman. If other people want to call you a woman, behind your back, wherever, thats fine. But we are talking about work situations, employment, contracts, where someone continuously and deliberately call you a woman, Ms Thatos, even though you are a man (hypothetical) even though you dont like it, and corrected them, where said action is then concidered harrassment. Dont you agree?

192

Wow… I can only imagine what all the kids who might use this forum are thinking right now. This is not a TOPIC for the forums!! This is not OKAY to be debating equality rights. It does not matter if you’re gay, straight, bi, Trans, if your skin is black, or brown, or white, all of that is irrelevant when playing this game. These are not topics that should be debated or argued on a HEARTHSTONE FORUM, PERIOD.

Like many of you who are arguing are of legal age, think about everyone that uses this site. Bickering about Gender and sexual orientation is not appropriate on a site that children have access to.

4 Likes
193

My opinion is that if you want to be called by a certain pronoun or a certain nickname then you should go for it! People decide they want to go by new nicknames all the time and for the most part others are happy to oblige.

Mhh i like the comparison between gender pronoun and nicknames. It shows why i used that example, even if other examples would be better.
If my Name is James and i tell everyone at work, that i go by the nickname “Shorty” people can decide to use it or not. Nobody gets in trouble, if they decide to not use it.
Of course it is not a perfect comparison, using the wrong pronoun is more likly seen as an insult.

@Cleng: You sound a little angry in your replys. I did not want to attack or insult you, if my answers gave you that feeling, i apologise. That was not my intention.

My first reply was to you telling someone, that LGBT is not a political subject. You implied, that “varying view points” cant exist, because it would be discrimination. And discrimination isnt up for a political debate. Maybe i interpreted that wrong? I am, after all, not above mistakes :slight_smile:

I habe the feeling, that you are very dismissive of other people opinion. That fact that every argument or opinion voiced is just a strawman for you (without realy answering the arguments presented) is part of what gives me this feeling.

But we do not have to argue about this. It is ok, if your opinion differs from mine. In The end we are both for equal rights, even if we have different opinions on the subjekt.
So why not end this part of the debate? It would not lead us anywhere.

1 Like
194

Yes do tell. What are the kids using this forum thinking right now?

195

No anger here m8. I dont know why you get that “feeling” or impression. Frustration, perhaps. Anger, no.

No i didnt. I asked you what varying view points you are talking about, that prompts an open, intelligent discussion about LGBT and the demonstration. (Wich you shared, by mentioning trans sports and marriage in churches) And then i wrote, this isnt a political subject. Discrimination isnt up for a political debate. You are either for equal rights, or you are not. Meaning, the rights of the LGBT community, isnt a political one. Its a question of equality. Equal rights. One is either for, or against.

Opinions is just that. Opinions. Claims without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. Claims need to be substantiated. When you argue: “one could just call yourself a woman, then enter a woman contest, and win it”, then thats an unsubstantiated claim, a strawman argument. Because its not reality, and your entire argument fails from the get go. My answer wasnt dismissive. I merely pointed out that your claim had no foot to stand on. You can call it dismissive, instead of taking on board the importance of substantiating our claims.

We can agree to dissagree, sure. My point is, that your opinions/claims are without substance. Thats my key objection. We both value equal rights, and im glad. Then you ofc value the rights of the LGBT community aswell, and im happy you do. Recognizing the fact that they have the same rights as you. And shouldnt be discriminated against. Allthough you seem to think churches, that offer public services, who are exempt from taxes, can do just that.

196

Unfortunately, for some people, a child’s uncorrupted mind is like a sponge. They want it to soak up their twisted morals…

That’s why they’re pushing it everywhere

2 Likes
197

Children are going to be who they are going to be. Nothing they read on this forum or anywhere else is going to make them gay or trans or anything of the sort. People make up this pure angelic, usually white, child figure to protect from evil wheneven they want to oppress people. The only thing you’re protecting any children from is discovering and accepting who they are.

1 Like