As Kibler says: It’s ok for some cards to be powerful.
It is impossible to make 13 cards per class of the same powerlevel unless you want to make the same card 13 times.
Titans are powerful, sure, but they are not OP. They have heavy limitations (they cannot attack for 3 turns) and because of their powerlevel they will get removed shortly after they it the board (Eonar and Amitus might survive longer thanks to their built in defense).
And by definition: if everything is broken nothing is. OP level is relative to the meta so if every card is super strong then everything is balanced. That’s simple logic.
No Titan is of Brann powerlevel as there are no decks built around Titans. Also no Titan is comparable to Boomboss.
You’re fighting a misguided war against something that is not an issue so I think you should hold hand with all those Helya haters… that might be difficult tho with fingers in your ears.
The statistics show the Titans haven’t had a disproportionately high played WR compared to other cards since Titans and that’s a statistic you can track. If it’s over the course of multiple sets where this is the case then it’s clear that they’re not broken. They’re powerful but they’re high mana cost cards and are allowed to scale higher in value (the same way that a 10 mana minion should be a very big swing).
That’s not even what I’m saying though. I said they have good played WR in certain classes specifically because those classes are good with or without Titans and they piggyback off of their classes’ success. There’s not a single meta deck right now that (1) has a high WR singularly because a Titan is present in their decklist (2) a Titan that has an entire decklist built around it.
You need to actually read and comprehend someone’s comment before trying to tell them what they’re saying.
Boomboss isn’t warping the meta (barely above 54% played WR), Brann isn’t warping the meta (same played WR as Boomboss) AND was already nerfed and deservedly so (but also not even a Titan), Reno has been nerfed several times already and is also not a Titan so I don’t see what any of these cards you listed have to do with Titans themselves.
Golg, Khaz, and Sargeras are all at 52% WR, Aman is 51%, Argus and Norg are both below 50%. Only 5 Titans have above 55% WR and of those cards 2 of them are in the best decks of the format (Amitus and Eonar) and again are neither defining the decks they are played in or warping the meta in ways that they have people building decks specifically to counter them being played.
Instead Druid’s problem is the dragon package and getting a ton of mana cheating and ramp where they then bury you to never building up enough mana to clear their board via Doomkin and Paladin runs Amitus but their highest WR cards are all focused around early hand buffing and Amitus really just acts like a top end to that deck that’s good enough to make it into the final few slots but is never a 1st pick or even a 15th pick for the deck.
Highlander paladin decks run Amitus and yet that deck according to the most recent VS report is that it has a below 50% WR against almost every other deck in the meta. I don’t know what Amitus’ played WR is in that deck, but if arguably the strongest Titan is in in that deck and if Titans are really warping the meta, then you’d think it would be a strong enough card to make it a .500 deck, and yet it’s not.
The minute you needed to insult people to make a point, you lost.
This is a straw man. I never made this claim or asked for it.
No they don’t. You can play them, use the ability you need, and that’s the end of it.
“Hey, let me get that extra health off you right here, thanks.”
“Oh, that’s going make taunt minions every turn for the rest of the game… hope you didn’t want a board based win.”
“Go ahead and discover infinite value in dragons forever, but it won’t be an issue because I can actually play any of them on the turn I find them, too! Aren’t you having fun!?”
Titans are huges swing turns, the kind of things that shouldn’t be in the game.
Dragon druid was never a thing, though, right?
The paladin titan literally gives all your minions 2/2 and decides games when you have a board… it would be more effective if Reno didn’t exist.
If you don’t understand why titans weren’t played in a meta that was “play warrior and delete your opponet’s hand, deck, and board or play the counter to warrior” I can’t help you with this anymore.
You are literally ignoring like 50 different points and replying with ‘hurrr durrr I can’t help you, you just don’t understand!’
Make an actual point instead of crying about how these cards are too powerful despite like a literal year of data across various metas describing that they’re not.
You keep going on about ‘well, well, well’ and never actually explaining anything, just repeating that I’m wrong and you’re right. No showcasing of stats to make an argument, just ‘you don’t get it, I’m not going to explain it to you, and if you don’t understand then you’ll never understand’ kind of mentality. I can’t imagine being in a workplace with someone with your lack of communication skills.
I remember when Zarimi Priest was meta, I had survived the Zarimi Turn through sweat and tears, stabilizing at 5HP. I managed to do that, and then Aman’thul came down.
He used his supposedly not OP ability to remove two minions from existence.
Then, he proceeded to discover Boomboss, which the Priest player copied twice and played ultimately three times. This led to a chain reaction triggered by me drawing a single TNT, ultimately causing me to lose a Control versus Aggro matchup of Rainbow Mage versus Zarimi Priest even though I had survived the “aggro.” If you think it’s not OP that a sideline ability could completely turn around a game I had already stabilized, then I don’t know what to say.
Brush aside Aman’thul’s already powerful abilities, the secondary effect alone was enough to reverse what seemed like a won game at that point in time to me.
Regarding claims about TITANS not being meta-relevant and such, consider this: Eonar caused a card to be text-nerfed because it enabled an incredibly toxic combo of endless shuffling, mana refreshing, and overwhelming board pressure. Aggramar has been a staple in every Hunter deck since release, as has Primus, Aman’thul, and Golganneth. Sargeras even spawned a Control Warlock variant designed to counter Odyn Warrior during its peak with the endless Taunts it generates. Just because they operate in the background doesn’t mean they lack influence.
When has anybody said Titans aren’t meta relevant?
There are lots of minion based removal and Aman costs 7 mana. Does every card that board clears need to be nerfed?
OK so this is really an issue with priests ability to steal class cards and duplicate them and he just managed to get a very situational Boomboss
So is this an argument that any card that has comeback potential is too strong?
And yes warrior kept winning those matchups because Odyn was too strong (and then nerfed). Warrior had their own Titan too. Why is that not part of the discussion? Oh right because Khaz was a solid card but wasn’t a wincon in the deck.
Every meta card has influence, that’s why they’re meta cards. Having influence =/= broken or OP.
Even IF Aman deserves a nerf (he doesn’t – I already posted his current played WR), that’s not even an argument that all Titans should get nerfed. This isn’t a one bad apple spoils the batch kind of scenario.
Just a 7-mana 3/10 that removes two minions from play, with potential for more follow-up. And if removal isn’t needed, it also possesses another two versatile not overpowered abilities. Oh, and it generates value too, choose among three options, because just generating something at random would apparently be too weak.
Totally fair and balanced, right?
I would say it’s an issue with… I don’t know, Aman’thul doing too much? Aman’thul having access to too much? Aman’thul having such a significant impact that it can turn an unfavorable matchup into a positive one? One card doing all that? Sounds completely fair in your world.
Is this an argument about twisting words to seem more unfavorable than they are, because you can’t think of an actual point? Enough with your bait questions. I’ll hope you can grasp this obviously isn’t what is being put down, otherwise, I’ve overestimated you for no reason.
Please, they are auto-includes. It’s the same story as Colossals all over again. Some are OP and auto-includes, and the others are way worse. All it creates is discrepancies between classes, making balancing xtimes harder.
Ah, case closed. Once again, the stats have spoken on this site.
Let’s wrap it up then. After all, it’s the stats that play the game, not the players. Let’s not bother with our opinions; let the stats, the real stars of the show, speak for us. I almost forgot where I was for a moment. On the HS Forums, parroting third-party data like it’s gospel is the norm. Any conversation beyond that is shut down and reported.
The discover mechanic in general is broken and ruined balance ever since it was introduced in the game. To date, discover is STILL by far the most powerful and prolific mechanic that has been released in the game.
Discover cards automatically replace a card, but they also act as a jack of all trades giving the person the ability to select 1 of 3 options. Hearthstone was designed to be a game heavily dependent on resource management more than games like MTG. This is because with only 30 cards and at max 2 copies per card, you could strategize your approach based on how many copies of a problematic card that you saw. However, discover throws all of that out the window since you can find a third or fourth copy of a problematic card by “random”.
Discover wouldn’t be so bad if there were strict limitations such as no discoverable card can be in standard and even then the pool of discoverable cards is extremely limited and specific to each card. But there are hardly any limitations which is why discover is such a massive RNG-fest that makes games feel cheap.
Correction. Reno is currently played in only 14% of decks. “Every” is complete hyperbole just like it was back when the card cost 9. If getting the card back to 8 mana means both sides get the Highlander Reno Poof effect than so be it. I still think the card is entirely fair for how you have to build your deck but i would rather see that change to make the card playable again.
Titans should exist in multiple flavors in Hearthstone. They really should be a card type and act more like BTRG Planeswalkers. High cost and high impact cards for late game strategies. The game cannot all be about aggro.
I mean, first of all it’s an anecdote, second of all it’s the effect of ridiculous RNG attached to Amanthul’s ability. Imagine if he’d discover Drilly or Snake Eyes. The outcome you present is not the part of OP nature of Amanthul but silly approach to RNG effects by Team 5.
Who ever said they are not meta relevant? C’mon bruh, you are better than make strawmans against me. And it’s even more hilarious that you even quote what I said and yet you misconstrue it anyway.
Aggramar is not how Hunter wins, at best it’s the last push. Hunter wins by flooding and controlling the early game first with Beast Token and now with Secrets. Secret Hunter is the best deck for the class and some decks do not even run Aggramar.
Primus is being run, so? It’s good card but almost never the reason DK wins.
Amanthul is being run in Priest and barely ayone plays Priest nowadays because it’s pretty bad. Zarimi Priest runs it but it’s not Amanthul that is OP in that deck (tho he is annoying but that’s because Priest can play him 3+ times).
So yeah, you’re strawmaned me hard but like I said before: Titans are powerful but are not OP. And the data proves that.
@Xethurn responded to your arguments raised against my opinions pretty well so I am only going to address one thing:
You are free to voice your opinions… but that blade swings both ways so people are free to have opinions about your opinions. That’s how we roll. Opinions and a^%$ and all that.
Bu the other thing is facts over feelings. You can feel that a card is OP, it’s your honest opinion and companies know that customers feelings are important. Buuuuuuuut feelings are subjective and there are objective ways to measure things like card powerlevel, stats like kept WR, deck WR and so on. So sure, when you say “I hate how Titans are designed and I wish they were altered” it’s your opinion. But when you say “I hate Titans because they are OP” people who disagree will provide stats that disprove your claim. Yes, we’re humans and have strong emotions but those emotions often do not reflect objective reality very well.
So data is not gospel, data is just… that, data. It allows us to make conclusions about the facts. And from HS data we can draw conclusion that relative to the meta they are being played in Titans are not OP. Eonar is not the reason Druid is OP, Amitus is not the reason for success of Hanbuff Paladin and Argus is definitely not the reason Windowshopper DH wins (mainly because the deck dosn’t run it).
Yes. Yes, I was. I was thinking about them and their deck, and preventing them from winning. They won because they generated a card from another class. Complete luck.
This is incredibly rare, and come with a downside. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Naturalize that kills anything for 1 mana.
I’d argue it was also because it was Neutral.
What? My deck being consistent isn’t the problem. This is not the point of the thread at all. Discover is nonsense, and Discover from a class not of your own is even worse.
I don’t think you even need to look wt the WR. Titans are cool. What they do can be the problem. Everything needs balance. At least they aren’t randomly discovering cards from another class.
I wouldn’t say impossible. The impact of a turn 1 1 cost card is different than a turn 10 1 cost card (unless it’s really a 10 cost card cheated to 1, which isn’t unfeasible in this day…) And they certainly could do a better job.
If all my microwaves are broken, they are still broken. You can have a broken meta where everything is just too strong for the mechanics of the game (i.e. 30 starting health).
54% Win rate is huge, because it is a slow deck, so it is quite likely to happen, so the statistics are very evenly translated, unlike a card that has a high mul keep, but average win rate. Not to mention, the deck has been nerfed so many times.
That’s his M/O. He’s a troll, then reports you for calling him out on it. He just makes things up to follow his own narrative, not at all addressing the points or having any experience with what he’s talking about (doesn’t even play duos, but constantly comments on it).
Yep.
But, HS is nothing these days if not trying to get people to gamble. They created an atmosphere where casuals want to gamble, then you have these hardcore HS fans defending it as if it is good for the meta. I mean, anomalies just showed up again…in ranked. Anyone who defends them in ranked isn’t serious about competitive gaming.
What does that even mean? That you have no point? Obviously this isn’t Magic. I’m saying the mechanic is broken in HS and you can’t even interact with your opponent.