Dev for a Day HOF's

Community Discussion
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Would be nice. Just a few things I’d put away.

OG Alex - HOF - This was tough. Either her or Maly. Alex is too universal however.

Leeroy - HOF - “Neutral Fireball” its time.

Shadowstep - HOF - It was either SS or VC. Without SS, absolutly monstrous VC’s would be toned down. That and SS just sucks to lose against.

Northshire Cleric - HOF - Also, its just time.

Freezing Trap - HOF - Again, has to be the most widely used secret to the point it outshines others and It’s activation is strange with other secrets. Or change it to freeze a minion for your next turn.

Soul of the Forrest - HOF - Getting SotF on 4-6 creates a board that is most of the time, lethal. A time when defile was around was the only reliable answer.

Sorcerers Apprentice - HOF - Mana reductions…Turns out, they are abuse-able.

Nothing in the Shaman, Warrior, or Warlock’s classic set are over problematic every set. Maybe Arcanite Reaper? Its techable though.

Ehh just some fun i was thinking about, would shake things up for sure.

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I know many people ask for such changes you suggest and I hate them. Cards like Leeroy, Edwin, Alex and Maly are such wonderfully designed cards, I would never consider to HoF them, because I’d lose any interest in the game without them.

Alex is just a great card, how would the game be more fun without her??? Also it is a 9 mana card and there is a risk running her. Often it’s a dead unplayable card in your hand, therefore great design combined with powerful effect!

Yes Leeroy is a neutral fireball and that’s great, because its fun! You can actually play around it with taunts or by planning ahead and keeping your hero on enough HP. Also Leeroy costs 5 mana and gives your opponent two 1/1 dragons, so it is a very risky and more expensive fireball. Therefore the card is absolutely iconic fun card to play and play against because it includes a lot of strategical knowledge and planning!

VC and SS are cards that are just great for Rogue and give the class identity! It is a combo class that does indeed unfair things, it is a Rogue after all… you would expect them to do all kind of shenanigans and therefore VC and SS are cards that you don’t want to ever HoF. Normally these cards come with the downside that you invest lot of resources and don’t really develop much, therefore it is really risky to run both cards. Recently you might have thought both cards are problematic because of lackeys. SS and VC don’t lose you many resources currently, because lackeys give you a ton of value and that shouldn’t happen in Rogue. Therefore not VC or SS are the problematic cards, but we should rather overthink if cards like Lifedrinker and Lackeys should be redesigned so that Rogue can’t abuse them.

I love Northshire Cleric, one of the strongest Priest Cards and I don’t see why the game would be more fun without the card. I absolutely want to play her, because it is a fun card!

Freezing trap I actually don’t care about, it comes with a great risk that your opponent plays around it and gets a card like zehrys back in his hand or a 1/1… Playing around secrets is a skill thing and I like that, so I don’t see how freezing trap is problematic, its a pretty solid trap, nothing special.

Soul of the Forest you can play Mass Dispel or Lord Godfrey, also it is 4 mana do nothing and maybe you shouldn’t let your opponent get such huge boards? I actually think it is a great card because it requires you to play around it by smart tradings and you only get punished if you let your opponent develop board for free. Don’t see how that’s bad for the game…

Mage is Spell class right? So having a card that synergizes with spells I don’t mind, but I do understand why people hate the card and I wouldn’t mind if spells can’t be reduced below 1 mana with Apprentice.

Actually in warlock there is Sacrificial Pact which is really bad designed. I wouldn’t HoF it though, but change it to “sac one of your own demons and restore 5 health” so that it is no longer possible to ‘sacrifice’ your opponents demons… Thats not what we call a sacrifice and thats also not the idea behind it.

I know you think changes are fun and losing all these cards would refresh the game for you, but I believe the game would become pretty boring, some classes would lose some of their identity and if you are honest to yourself you lost to many of these cards because you were just too lazy to play around them. The solution for that is not to HoF every iconic card in the game, but improve your level of skill.

Ty very much.

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I agree with pretty much everything except the Northshire Cleric. It’s…fine. I never felt like I lost to a Cleric in a stupid OP way.

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most of the reasons you posted there feel so empty …like

"its time " be used to justify literally any card being HoF

soul of the forest doesnt create a board … cards that create boards do it starting from an empty one

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Like Goldshire Footman. Let us end the tyranny of cheap crappy taunts!

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How about divine spirit and/or inner fire? My guess is inner fire will get HoF’ed.

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i think they hinted they would a while ago so i wouldnt be surprised if they finally do it

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This guy has the logic 100% agree!
Of all those things apprentice is the only thing I would nerf (not HOF) and made it so that it was to a minimum of 1

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Total rework of priest, DS/IF and Northshire Cleric all go.

Replaced with playable cards though, no more of this garbage like Call of the Wild and Radiance.

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HOF Every good card in Classic

Can’t the classic set have any good cards? Because some people feel like the classic/basic set should all just be pack filler

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Those are good choices. But there are alot more crapp that could be add to this list that should have been HoF’d long ago.

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While I don’t care if something is put into the HoF since I play mostly wild (also casual, I’m not a “tryhard”) anyway I still want to give you my perspective because I really hate Alexstrasza’s design.

There’s a reason Pyroblast costs 10 mana and this card is basically played as that plus being a giant 8/8 dragon. Couple that with some burst damage and then if the opponent doesn’t have an immediate good answer to not only suddenly being hit by a Pyroblast but also a big 8/8 minion that can attack face for half their current health he basically just loses the game.

Therefore I always concede to it because the design itself just yells to me: “Okay, I’m here to win this game. Might as well give up, buddy. I don’t care about your pathetic game you want to play.”

Now, I do have to say that I’m not playing “competitively”. I’m not a “tryhard”. I only want to play the game and have fun. And that’s where Alex comes in and says: “Oh? You wanted to have fun? Sorry, my master is a tryhard and only cares about winning. I guess you should just…” “Checkmate. Well done.”

And what exactly is the “risk” running her?

That you might not get to 9 mana? Yeah, I can see how much of a “tryhard” you must be. At what turn should the game end? Turn 5? 3? How about turn 1 with a card you play that just says “You win the game”. But I imagine that would be even boring and meaningless to a “tryhard”. Wouldn’t it?

Or is it that you might have to heal your opponent for like 5. I mean you’re still putting down an 8/8 where at other times you would also simultaneously Pyroblast the opponent. That’s still incredibly good.

And it’s even better! In rare situations you can also heal yourself for a bit. This one I really don’t mind (I would even say it’s not enough for that mana cost especially considering you would need to be extremely low on health for that), but how often does that happen?

And as if it’s not bad enough she litterally says “I bring life and hope”. In the rare situation of a clutch heal on yourself, okay. But Pyroblasting the opponent? WTF?! This is just the worst.

How would I change her? Before Reno and Nozari I thought of those effects, but now… I don’t know anymore. But the current version is just an abomination in my opinion.

If I could I would just not play against people that play her. I really always concede to her so it would save a lot of time. And for that matter there are also other cards which I really hate like Jades and Pogo-Hoppers. So I’m not even necessarily asking to change her, but I really just can’t stand her design which in my opinion is among one of the worst in the game.

The only thing that I wouldn’t mind all that much is if she’s randomly generated by RNG or Discover because she’s not very good if you’re not building your deck around her. (I probably conceded one or two games accidently not thinking about that possibility because of my fevered hatred for her.) Just like with Ice Block and basically all HoF cards. And maybe all the here mentioned cards and other in my opinion problematic cards like Divine Spirit, Inner Fire, Savage Roar, Bloodlust.

Instead of the old HoF there should be a “Hall of Explorers”: A card pool which you can only access via random card generation and Discover. You want to have play with some broken synergies? Good luck finding it. But if you do I will respect that. After all you really earned it then since it’s quite a rare finding. Just like getting Unstabe Evolution off of Witch’s Cauldron in Preist with Radiant Elemental or in Mage with Sorcerer’s Apprentice. That’s awesome even. But it clearly would be broken if you could just put everything into one deck and then just draw into it. (Oh wow, look at me. I drew the x-th piece of my “I win” combo. Woohoo.)

What do you think?

At the very least I hope that you now might understand better why some people might not like the design that much. Although I can only really speak for myself of course.

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Wow I can sense some deep hatred for Alexstrasza there :smiley:

Take a deep breath and relax! It’s really not as bad as you are describing things.

First of all, Handlock plays a 8/8 on 4 mana, Gala Shaman can play 2 8/8 on 7 mana, Rogue can have a 8/8 on 3 mana or 22/22 on 7 mana and this list goes on and on, so I can’t really agree on your argument 9 mana 8/8 is that big of a swing turn as you describing it.

About the comparison with Pyroblast, that’s a mage spell and Alex is neutral that you can put in your own deck as well. Pyro always applys 10 dmg and can even kill you. Alexstrasza never kills you, because it can’t reduce your HP below 15… thats a huge difference!

Reading your post you get the feeling a 9 mana 8/8 is the most broken thing in the game when it sometimes also reduces your HP from 25 to 15 functioning as a ‘pyroblast’, but thats very situational and often you just die yourself if you just play a 9 mana 8/8 and do nothing else.

You were talking a lot about playing competitive vs. playing for fun, but what does that make for a difference? Hearthstone is a game that’s won by reducing your opponents HP from 30 to 0. That’s the rules, I didn’t make them it is just how the game works and there is different strategies to get there. The first thing a new player would try is to build an aggressive Facehunter to try to get the opponent to 0 asap. Then he might realize some opponents have too much heal and the face strategy doesn’t work often enough and that’s where you start to develop and discover new strategies, however the rules stay the same, decks that are more efficient reducing HP from 30 to 0 are stronger than decks running low synergy gameplans that want to do something ‘fun’ instead.

What I am trying to say it is not about after how many turns I personally want the game to finish, Blizzard made it 30 HP and ending the game when one has 0 HP and there is Facehunter strategies that accomplish that around turn 6.

So I really don’t get your argument. The way the game is designed, with 30 HP total and the point of the game being to reduce your opponents life total to 0 HP, I think it is quite amazing there is sometimes games lasting for 30+turns. Average is probably 10-12 turns I’d guess.

Alexstrasza is pretty much a key card for control decks to formulate a win condition and being able to convert the “controlling” into a victory. Without Alex, Warrior would just armor up, but never deal enough dmg to ever win the game.

So if you run aggro decks, you basically never come to the point to play alex yourself or seeing your opponent play it, game is over long time before. As midrange deck, you probably don’t run Alex and you are aware you have to beat the control deck rather quickly, before the control deck can consolidate and in Control mirrors, well you have to be the smarter player to win these…

So again, I really think Alex is fitting in very specific kind of decks and doing a great job there and in your own deckbuilding you have to acknowledge the existence of such decks and formulate a win strategy beforehand how to beat control decks. If you don’t design your decks to do so, yeah I guess Alexstrasza can be annoying, but thats not because Alex is bad design, but thats because you didn’t realize how the game functions and play non-efficient decks.

Like what you are describing is like playing chess and move your knight 5 times in a row, because you claim you don’t like to play competitive and complaining that the other guy always check mates you after 6 turns. Maybe learn from that and stop moving your knight 5 times in a row and start playing more efficient in terms of how the entire game is designed. You can still have fun and follow some basic chess rules the same time. Try to use that knowledge when playing hearthstone.

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eer what ? good luck "playing it as a pyroblast " when opponent hp is 15 or less

and everybody play trying to win

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Yeah, that is annoying as well. The thing is you can potentially handle those things relatively easily. Alex on the other hand is only run to do that AND essentially cast Pyroblast at the enemy at the same time. It’s of course true that you can’t die from it alone, but at 15 health it’s so easy to get bursted down. Jaraxxus sets you at 15 being a “glass cannon” with arguably the best Hero Power you can get in a normal game. (DK Rexxar might be better because more flexible and certain Hero Powers fit certain strategies better.)

Yeah, I know. This is the problem I guess.

I just love to actually play Hearthstone and don’t care about winning except to have something to go for when playing the game.

I would love if 30 turns would be the average and you just constantly “having fun” with your opponent.

But I do realize that of course the game isn’t designed that way.

That really is the crux of the problem. I wish I could play the game differently.

We do have cards like Yogg, Cauldron, Marin, Saraad, of course the upcoming Amazing Reno, and much more. But what are those worth if everyone just plays to win. Will it improve my deck if I run Marin? He probably only saw “competitive” play in a Shudderwock deck that fills your opponent’s board with Chests as I saw that once. Especially since the Treasure is random and it’s not that easy to break the chest you wouldn’t use it “competitively”. But it’s really fun! As are many others.

And that’s why I really hate Competition. It takes away the “fun” for me. And Alexstrasza is basically the incarnation of that. Although there are many others of such “unfair” win condition cards. Like Jades. You eventually can’t beat them. “Might as well concede now, buddy. I’m just here to win.”

Of course I know that most people don’t play the game in this way “to have fun”, but… all I can say is that it’s quite a shame.

You could do so much awesome stuff in the game. But most just choose to “compete”, to “totally annihilate their opponent” and get enjoyment from that.

I guess I just don’t really like the very foundation of Hearthstone’s game design. But at the same time they make those “fun cards” to mess around with because they want to cater to that “casual audience”.

I just wish there would be a mode where you could play with your own rules like to ban those cards. Of course not for competitive play as that would be dumb. (Just ban all your counters.) But that’s how a true casual mode could look like and which I still wish for.

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The point isnt that its just a decent time to rotate him, its that the design space has been filled with him since the beginning. Im ok with a closer for aggro / mid range, but having Leeroy over and over for years gets stale. Hes also super abusable, which aligns with the “wild” gameplay more than standard. From bouncing, to buffing, to mirrors, and duplicates, it all just blends together. A classic card should not hold that much weight, where it is just an instant add no matter what.

Soul of the forest is beyond punishing. At 4 mana, you can realistically pull of a 5 minion board that is resistant to removal, and resistant to taunts. With all the reload that Druid has, soul of the forest just feels bad. You in essence have to clear every turn. If the entire game plan is to kill everything every turn or your dead, that’s not good game-play.

I put “Neutral Fireball” in quotes becuase everyone assumes that he is a neutral fireball. Which he is not. Hes soo much better. Imagine if spell power just stacked everytime it was played. Thats leeroy vs fireball

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Now we are on the same paper I guess.

I never understood why games can’t be customized when challenging a friend. Should be pretty easy to include an option to adjust HP total, Decksize, Handsize etc.
I do get why they can’t really customize it for casual, because if they had like 10 different options you could choose from, queues might be too long and people might get annoyed by that. Still, I think it would be totally fine if they at least added the option to queue casual games with both heroes on 100 HP, I can’t imagine that influencimg queue times too much and this would be a mode thats designed to play all the fun stuff over many many turns.

So about Alexstrasza, the way standard mode is designed currently I think Alexstrasza is very well designed and you are just wrong. Your feeling the card being bad design has to do with your own preference playing long games and don’t being on the risk of dying due to burst from hand, but that’s not how the game is designed currently.

So next time you call a card ‘bad design’ I hope you are looking at it a bit more objective taking in consideration how a game is designed and not how you’d want the game to be designed.
For example in that ‘each Hero 100 HP’- scenario, Alex indeed is bad design and she should be banned from that mode (no point starting at 100 HP when 1 card can set you to 15 instantly, would be included in every deck thats not running mechathun, that being another card that should be banned in that mode, because thats not the point of a 100HP game mode. Now that I am thinking of these things, I guess thats why they didn’t include such casual mode yet with 100 HP each, because there might be too many cards that would abuse such mode, but they could ban all these cards, so I really wished that mode existed.)

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