Then how are you completely unaware of the following cards:
Now show me 5 cards that decks running Speakers are using to dig to draw or copy more Speakers.
Give me a break, man. You won’t be drawing Speakers or discovering Speakers faster than Shaman is getting Flashes. To argue that you can get 2 speakers just as fast as Shaman is getting 2 Flashes is ridiculous.
I don’t know why he isn’t on your ignore list at this point, lol
If it wasn’t for you guys quoting him, I would never see his ignorant messages again, for a lack of better words, because they’re all against the ToS
I said about as fast. I acknowledge that Shaman does get them slightly faster.
But 1 Speaker nullifies up to two Flashes. It’s a time walk. Burn Shaman has incredibly low defenses, and what little it does have is weak to Defile. Any deck with decent board presence, which includes Wheellock, can draw just one Speaker, push that OTK back a turn, and win with pressure. One turn is huge.
Speaker is also a Time Walk against several other decks btw
Well, despite what my interactions recently with him on the forums are, I consider Scrotie a friend. We both appreciate a healthy debate and I don’t think either of us take anything we say to each other to heart. The last month or so I’ve probably been in more disagreement with him than ever before because some of his takes are just throwing me for a loop. Usually we’re on the same page.
I only ignore people who actively seek me out to say something purposefully harmful or rude with no interactions and only 2 people have met that criteria. Other people I have learn to just flat out ignore and never respond to any more no matter what. They know who they are.
I actually enjoy conversing with Scrotie.
They are not. This is a ridiculous thing for you to say.
If you’re arguing that 1 Speaker is enough then that is 1 thing. But you won’t be getting your Speaker(s) faster than Shaman gets their Flashes. If they flash and you speaker, the chances of them flashing again before you have your other speaker is even worse.
If we’re just talking about Wheel Warlock vs Shaman, it doesn’t even matter. You need to get massively lucky to beat Burn/Nature shaman because you cannot stop the OTK. You don’t have rat or armor and full health is meaningless. They will get the combo off loooooooooong before your wheel ticks for the 5th time.
The only chance you have is with big minions and end game. Unfortunately, Shaman handles those surprisingly well. Defile means nothing here, I don’t even know why you bring it up. Shaman isn’t dumping the spell damage minions and hoping they stick for a turn. They dump them the same turn they OTK you. You have no way to interact with them. Thus, I have seen some Wheel Warlock lists running Rat. That might just be a high legend tactic to make the matchup better.
Either way, Wheel Warlock should just chalk up the matchup to a loss. And running Speaker is pretty bad itself.
Oh and btw of course I have played lots of Flow Riders, Cutters, Deputies and Reflexes myself. I haven’t played Card Grader but idk might be alright. I’m not a big fan of needing to play a spell first though, seems really bad if I don’t have a Reflexes or a Flash already, and if I’m spending a Flash I want it to be a sure-ish thing already. Definitely seems weaker than the other four cards but might maybe outclass a Needlerock Totem.
Nature shaman was/is/will be a sentiment outlier and is deserving of getting nerfed just for that.
No reason for people trying to explain it to the wall here, he won’t listen.
I believe that nerfing something for being a sentiment outlier is never correct. The sentiment of the players playing the deck matters just as much as the sentiment of everyone else.
I think he likes that style of deck tbh. It’s reminiscent of Mozaki Mage, which is arguably one of his favorite decks. He thinks the deck never should have been nerfed based strictly on stats, but the fact is that it OTKd you on 5 and 6 often enough to make the game extremely uninteractive.
In fact, that’s exactly why it got nerfed. Mozaki was nerfed because the devs didn’t like how fast it could do its OTK and it was a bad play pattern that tons of people didn’t like. Shaman is dangerously close to that same style of play and I think it gets nerfed because of the same reasons.
People are fine with combo / OTK decks as long as the combo / OTK decks aren’t able to do their combo / OTK too fast. Especially so if it’s non-interactive. It’s not fun for most people, and if I were a developer I wouldn’t want toxic gameplay like that either because it makes people turn away from the game.
This is where stats don’t matter and sentiment outliers do. For example, I’ve argued if a card said “At start of game if this is the last card in your deck, you automatically win the game” and it created auto wins for 1 out of 30 games and only had 4% win rate, it should be removed. Scrotie is one of those players who thinks that’s perfectly ok because stats matter more than gameplay feelings.
Someone explain to them that I enjoy playing broken decks, so if I enjoy playing broken decks, then why do they get nerfed?
It’s not right. My sentiment of liking to play broken decks should matter.
Check mate. At least it would have been if I was conversing to someone reasonable, which I’m not.
As open-minded as I try to be about understanding another’s perspective, this I can’t.
I simply can’t imagine the person that likes a deck that tries to win with the least amount of interaction. I can play rainbow mage personally because there is decisions involved that expand beyond playing and drawing your own deck, something that nature shaman doesn’t do.
The skill cap of such deck is mostly dependent on your draw from game to game. It’s as you said the type of deck that even the developers don’t want in the spotlight. It had its time, them finally ending its run isn’t unreasonable. If anything this could provoke buffs in other aspects lacking such as shudderblock shaman.
The existence of Speaker Stomper (and to a lesser extent Cult Neophyte) is extremely relevant to why it’s not really the same situation at all. Flash of Lightning can be interacted with, the tools to interact with it are good against multiple decks, and they’re neutral so everyone can use them.
I think coining Loken on 5 to dig for Speaker Stomper is a fine play against Burn Shaman.
I’ll never support decks that can just kill you with some combo from hand early. It’s not healthy nor fun to play against and it will turn people away from the game.
Killing someone early from board is completely different.
If the game were set up in a different way where you could interact with someone on their turn then it could be ok because the win isn’t determined based on luck of draw and you aren’t playing solitaire.
Anything that resembles solitaire doesn’t belong in Hearthstone as far as I’m concerned. I don’t care how bad the win rate is.
If a card said “You have a 3% chance of automatically winning at the start of the game but the rest of your deck is nothing but 0/2 taunt minions” I wouldn’t support it. It’s terrible to have that interaction. I don’t care if it’s a 3% win rate. No one wants to go into a game and lose against that where there is quite literally nothing they can do about it.
OTK combo decks that are pushing into the turn 5-6 range by playing solitaire resemble that style.
Everything you said, yes.
Is this some kind of side game where the goal is to make the strawmanniest strawman ever?
And we seriously need to stop abusing the term “sentimental outlier”. This deck is NOT just a sentimental outlier.
As the ignored user above pointed out, there are stats missing for top legend play because the sample is too low. What happens there goes under the radar of total data and you have to either play in there or watch the top streamers play there to see what’s happening there.
And that should be done regularly because chances are, the meta created there will scale down the ladder sooner or later.
I repeat, nerfing this deck will NOT negatively impact lower ranks, but can certainly positively impact higher ranks.
For lower ranks, it will save some worse players from going 1-20 with a deck which is extremely hard to pilot properly, and for higher ranks, it will allow for more fair competition which actually allows counterplay.
No, that’s literally all it is. Tier 4. I already presented the receipts.
If it was actually tier 4 then it wouldn’t be a sentimental outlier lol.
It’s happened numerous times in the past that Tier 4 decks were nerfed. Unjustly.