I think I might have misrepresented my side. The more knowledgeable, experienced player, will win. Obviously. But once you have learned most of the interactions, mechanics, there is very little you can do to improve. Skill, by definition, is the ability to do something.
Knowledge=/=skill. You can be a better player, but I don’t consider that skill. You just know what works and doesn’t. Pure luck? No. Luck does factor in? Definitely.
I think it’s just a matter of what you’re defining as the “skill” part.
If skill is simply just physically doing something, then it’s not a fair definition. By this definition, a chess player has zero skill, other than just physically moving their piece and hitting the clock. But I disagree with this. Their “skill” in chess is nearly all of their knowledge and what they know. Thus, the most “skilled” chess player is also the most knowledgeable.
I dislike labeling skill as simply the ability to DO something when it comes to heavy knowledge based games.
I think skill requires interaction. Not just my piece will take yours, but knowing how you will react. Calculation. If it comes down to, this is the clear choice, I don’t think that’s skill.
There is a quote, to paraphrase, ‘no plan survives first contact with the enemy.’ If your knowledge doesn’t calculate your opponent, I don’t consider that skill.
I get what you’re saying, but if you notice you keep using knowledge words like “calculation” and “calculate” to get to skill. The calculation or your opponent’s next piece and calculation of your opponent is the knowledge.
For example, in American Football, knowledge would be knowing what running route my opponent is going to run. Knowledge is knowing that if he cuts left, I also have to adjust left. Knowledge is knowing not to stay heavy on your feet. Knowledge is knowing you have to keep pace with your opponent.
Skill is doing the actual action to perform those things. Skill is being able to physically adjust left when my opponent cuts left. Knowledge is knowing I have to. Skill is being able to.
Thus, skill is the DO something action, knowledge is knowing you have to.
But this isn’t fair in Hearthstone and chess because there is little physical action needed. There is little dexterity needed. But we know it’s not fair to say a chess player has no skill, much like it’s not fair to say a Hearthstone player has no skill. Thus, the skill has to be the knowledge.
I think we are getting close…
I think skill really comes down, taking your example, performing that maneuver, but also anticipating how they will react. Then seeing them react and improvising.
My issue with “skill” is when it comes down to ‘this is the clear choice.’ That doesn’t feel
like skill.
This is like another dog whistle for knowledge. My knowledge that I’m playing card A tells me I should anticipate my opponent playing card B, thus I should prepare card C.
I’d just say the use of the word “choice” is part of the knowledge afterall. Knowledge is knowing the choice and knowing if that is the best choice.
I think we’re just forced to call all of the knowledge as skill in Hearthstone, Chess, Backgammon, etc because there is very little dexterity need to perform the action.
That draws back to my previous comment. They had a baron in a beast build. I had a whitemane that countered them. They have to react. Reposition. Obviously choice. But that’s what I would expect.
that’s where I disagree. Following a textbook, I don’t consider that skill. Again, it’s interaction. If your opponent knows everything you do, how respond is the skill.
Good debate Steppy. I see where you’re coming from, but I disagree slightly. Like you said, we’re almost there lol
I think we both understand each other and can just agree to disagree with our usage of the word skill.
Thanks for the discussion!
If you can see where I’m coming from… then you can see where I am going. To bed.
Schyla, keep being amazing!
That’s your problem. You think you know and have learned everything. Watch a top BG’s player sometime and as they talk you through what they are doing they are also learning something new each game. They literally talk on camera about how an interaction may work and whether a play is the best or not. They NEVER stop learning and getting better.
Um, APM builds are skills.
Learning that you can change the screens faster if you refresh while other actions are resolving and then playing blood gems/spellcraft while the refresh resolves, etc, is knowledge of the game mode and skill in execution.
There are many places where one’s knowlege is not the skill.
It’s really not. You aren’t gonna get a 4th buff from Theotar. It’s not happening.
You and Lime don’t understand, at a certain point, you are standard. I don’t mean the game mode, I mean what you do is typical.
APM builds, Lime? Really? You have chance to do those maybe 1 in 6 games. Even then it’s very luck based if you get the right minions. And it’s not even that good against the top builds. So sit down.
Apm builds are not skill,at least not a skill i would rate highly. Its a very specific skill which has virtually nothing to do with the rest of the game. (apm becomes considerably faster when you know what to do,that part is part knowledge which is also part of the skillset).
And sometimes during apm builds you have to anticipate next opponent,beeing able to do that quickly gives you morer time for your apm so in that regard it definitely has some skill element.
But in general,performing the actions itself as fast as possible,and all the small details which can speed up the actions,that i dont really consider skill but thats my personal preference i guess.
There is skill in the game though. Its not knowing and executing all standards build,that is knowledge that everyone can learn if they take the time.
How to get there,even if your rolls are not that great,that is the skillfull part. Its something that you can not learn from a book because it is not standard. Every game is different.
You dont always need to be skillfull. Sometimes beeing lucky is enough and the game will play itself. But there is still plenty of moments where you have to make a skillfull decission.
What quest to pick.
Rush the quest or not.
What minions to buy to optimize your expected value.
When to commit,when to leave your options open.
When to level,when to be greedy and when to play safe.
Early game curves,there are standard curves but quiet often a flexible aproach based on the shops is better.
Ignoring or adjusting to your next opponent
When to go all in.
And many more.
And the most important skill,once you have a decent level in the other skill related aspects:Endgame play.
What tech to use,how to use it,positioning. Anticipating not only your next opponent but also the one after that.
This is the most difficult and also the most important part. You have to be able to see the combat sequence play out in your head and then recognize how you can improve.
Sometimes its very obvious but sometimes it requires very onorthodox plays that are not trivial.
This is very much under appreciated by many players stuck in the 6-7k range.
Orly? I guess we play very differently.
There are tons of apm points in games that aren’t straight apm pirates. There are apm aspects to murlocs, elementals, quilboars, etc. There are many different things to cycle.
Definitionally, as soon as your MMR goes into the top 20% you’re definitionally no longer “typical” actually.
If any of you are wondering, what skill is is seeing options, and what a lack of skill is is the lack of seeing options. It’s like Sherlock Holmes saying “you see, but you do not observe.” Options are hiding in plain sight right in front of you but you’re too stupid to understand what you’re looking at.
Go and have a truly skilled player look at a replay of one of your games, and they’d point out all kinds of options that you just passed right over, quickly, as if nothing was there. Speeding on through. That’s why I think there was some AMAZING advice for getting better in another recent thread:
Give yourself time to be that better player watching your replay. Give yourself time to see the things that are hidden in plain sight before you. If you’re not roping often, you’re not serious about increasing your skill.
You need to understand that the very stereotype of a low skill Battlegrounds player is someone who overcommits to a particular build and just starts hard rolling for one or two particular minions. They’re the ones who end up saying “oh it’s just luck, either you get your Baron or you don’t” because it’s confirmation bias, the only way their play was good play is if that premise is true. They believe it because it makes them feel better about themselves. Their tunnel vision blinds them to any the other options offered. Instead of seeing what’s before them, they just see not-Baron, or not whatever it is their tunnel vision is focused on.
Sometimes those options are there. Sometimes they’re not. I’m not trying to say that Battlegrounds is 0% luck. But I am saying that you’re not going to see plays that you aren’t even looking for. Sometimes no amount of skill can turn a Tavern refresh that’s a miss into a hit, but a lack of skill can easily turn a hit into a miss.
It’s amazing that I have finished first place in my last five consecutive lobbies. What insane luck!
Malygos - murlocs
Cariel - Quils
Eudora - frogs
Drek’Thar - elementals
Biggles - elementals
It’s amazing how bad so many players are at this mode. Just no clue what they are doing.
Today’s PSA: Kalecgos is bait. It’s too slow in almost every case outside of some odd highroll when you luck into a golden copy before you have ten mana or something. 1/1 for cycles is just not that good in the current meta.
The main thing that allows a person to attain rank in this format persistence. Most people find a balance between fun and rank, often giving up a stronger board to high roll. It’s a hell of a lot easier to rank if you’re just dedicated to make top 4 every time and never risk for the high rolls. Some get frustrated and quit some BG’s. I say i play 50% for fun/50% for rank. Of course not gonna be ranked as high as someone that plays 100% for rank.
Playing a lot does help.
Virtually all rating points above 10k-12k mmr are from grinding. You can rise thousends of points above your internal mmr if you play a lot.
You can see this when the bonus runs out after the new season does start. Xqn,s and jeef,s bonus runs out at around 10k-12k mmr.
(they stop getting 300 for first at 10k mmr and the bonus stops completely somewhere around 11k i think,might be 12k).
They can get to 17k but next season the bonus will still end around 10k-12k. Which means their internal mmr is around 10k-12k.
I would say its 50/50 for me as well. Maybe even leaning towards the fun side. I still try to play well though even when i go for something silly.
I wish they would only use internal mmr,then we could see the real skill distribution amongst the top of the ladder.
But blizzards idea is that players need to gain mmr else they might stop playing. Blizzard is stuck in this model for virtually all their games,they wont even consider an alternative. Players must have a sense of achievement and improvement.
Maybe blizzard thinks their games alone are not good enough to keep people playing. They are probably right when it comes to many of their games. But i do think BG players are mature enough that they can handle not always gaining mmr in the long run.
I thought these rants were for Tuesdays
We getting it in today instead of the big expansion day tomorrow? I will say a lot of this game does in fact have a lot of RNG thus is the nature of an auto-battler, however, there is an element of skill.
For example, I was multitasking this morning and fired up a game of BGs. I missed my first TWO turns, which is arguably pretty crippling depending on the heros in the lobby/avaialble tribes. I still took first place.
I’ll admit to reach first place it took some major gambles, but my hero choice (Gallywix) helped me along the way to buy more a turn, which I used to my advantage by my own intent, not some pop-up in-game or something.
Gallywix is sooo fun.
There was this one insane game that I got Gally and elementals and cooked books… that was hella fun.
I think that got nerfed so it doesn’t happen anymore because it really wasn’t a fair game.